Victim Of Capital Punishment
An odds and ends collection of VERY opinionated letters and commentary from a capital punishment chat room...
Many of the paragraphs below are replies to some of the most bloodthirsty and sadistic people I have ever had the displeasure of meeting on the Internet. We were part of a pro-and-con death penalty forum hosted by Yahoo. Most of the participants were overwhelmingly pro capital punishment, so I had my hands full expressing a life long opposition to this charming brand of socially sanctioned murder. Many also professed to be devout Christians, so some of my responses are not Christian friendly. I'll let them stand as examples of the hostility one can be drawn into when participating in such groups. I finally quit in disgust after listening to "Christians" turn their savior into a modern day executioner, smiling beatifically as he presses the plunger on a syringe full of lethal chemicals and sending another poor devil to his just reward. The letters are replies to three bone stupid conservative editorials appearing in The Washington Times and a short lived local rag called The Public Enterprise. Now, five years later, it all seems so pre 9/11.
3/21/00
Editor
The Washington Times
Sir:
It is sad and ironic that Madalyn Murray O'Hare, who did not suffer fools gladly, had the misfortune of giving birth to one. I refer to Seth Hettena's March 15th article "Famous atheist's son tries to revive prayer banned in his name". William J. Murray employs the fatuous rhetoric of a bygone era when he implies that the opponents of school prayer are "collectivists bent on the destruction of America". He further implies that such opposition is, alas, a "sin". I and a lot of other good Marylanders who oppose school prayer cordially invite Mr. Murray to return to the conservative bastions of Virginia from which he came, where he is free to stir up the kind of religious mischief not much welcomed in Maryland. If he is so intent on making a case for religiosity, let him prevail upon Gov. James Gilmore to suspend the death penalty so beloved and much practiced in his home state. Executions and the public profession of Christ's teachings make an odious combination.
mwmayer
9/8/84
Mr. Frank Pierce Young
The Public Enterprise
Sir:
Thomas French Norton is a confused man. His simple minded editorial about the Holocaust reveals him as a person with a blinkered historical prospective, incapable of critical thinking. What a very odd way of completely missing the point! Someone should sit down with Mr. Norton and patiently explain to him why the Holocaust looms so large in contemporary consciousness, why it was so much more than an act of genocide. If no one can be found to illuminate Mr. Norton, then perhaps he will bother reading some of the recent literature about those who engineered the holocaust and those who suffered it. But I doubt whether anything would carry much conviction for a man who apparently believes that genocide is just one of those historical inevitabilities that human beings capriciously inflict on one another. You would think that the continued incidence of genocide in the world, of which Mr. Norton labors to cite example after example, would persuade him that the problem requires not less, but more study. To accuse the Israelis of practicing genocide in Lebanon and then yawningly compare the Holocaust to the internment of Japanese-Americans is just the kind of muddle-headed thinking a holocaust Memorial might correct. Taxpayer's money? For a fraction of the cost of a single B-1 bomber, we could have a facility that just might help bring moral illumination and tolerance for cultural diversity to a world bereft of both.
The old "everybody is guilty" implication of Mr. Norton's editorial is a thoroughly banal rhetorical device. If everybody is guilty of genocide then nobody is guilty! The moral order collapses under such thinking and questions of accountability and justice become problematic in the extreme. What a bleak prospect for humanity if, as Mr. Norton apparently believes, a Klaus Barbe or a Josef Mengele can step forth, murder millions with impunity, and then melt safely back into the faceless hordes of their insouciant brethren. After an interval of a generation or so, the criminal descendents of a Stalin, or a Hitler, or a Pol Pot, lured by the sloth and idle malignity of "the herd" are beckoned forth to murder anew, like the grim fulfillment of Santayana's warning about what happens to a people who forget their past.
Does Mr. Norton believe there is no remedy for the state of affairs he so glibly portrays? Does he really believe that neither individuals nor countries are capable of bootstrapping themselves into realms of higher moral comprehension? He at least concedes that "the memory of the Holocaust must not be allowed to fade". Well, in order for it not to fade, the extant records must be widely available for study. I believe that the architects of the Holocaust Memorial ask only one question. Can the next, possibly imminent, act of genocide be prevented? Only, they might answer, if a dedicated, informed world citizenry rises up and roars with indignation at those who begin perpetrating such atrocities.
Learn, to the last quotidian detail, what happened to the victims of Nazi aggression between the years 1933-1945 and you will have the best documented case of genocide in our time and an instrument for preventing it in the future. Let the next act of wanton mass murder happen in silence and we are all, indeed, accomplices.
mwmayer
9/5/93
Editor
The Washington Times
Sir:
I see that your loathsome little chatterbox of conservative hate mongering is at it again. I refer to Samuel Francis’s Amy Biehl column of 9/3/93. This latest specimen of degenerate opinionating stands in a category all its own. From the comfort of his air conditioned office, the craven Mr. Francis can content himself with vilifying a young woman who is no longer around to defend herself. There are so many wrongful and hurtful things in this column as to be unworthy of refutation. The imbecilic use of the word “bubblehead” (eleven times) is surely the sign of mental enfeeblement. And the appalling ignorance of the history and true state of affairs in South Africa left me dumbfounded.
But after all, one does not read Sam Francis for illumination. One reads him with the same guilty fascination of a spectator at a freak show. The freakish Mr. Francis has contorted himself into shapes so at variance with simple human decency as to be hardly recognizable. One blanches at the sight, and then moves on quickly to more wholesome fare.
So, here’s to all the shrill and heartless pedagogues of the world. Here’s to you, Samuel Francis. You have confirmed far better than the lamentations of Melanie Jacobs that we do, indeed, need a million more Amy Bhiels. Thank God, there is only one of you.
mwmayer
George W. Bush is the most unworthy, disgusting man ever to run for the presidency. And anyway, how could I ever vote for a man who has a mouth that looks like an asshole?
The people of South Carolina are sheep, and that's the truth of the matter. They are taught (indoctrinated) at an early age to revere without question the Word from On High and it doesn't matter if that word comes from a pulpit or a godamned TV set. They can secede from the Union again as far as I'm concerned and create their own bloody little racist Gulag where they won't pollute the rest of us.
Cue-card boy. The Shamed One. Country Club Republican. The little dummy. Smirking little imbecile. Only slightly smarter than Dan Quayle. Shrub. Dubya. All of these lovely epithets have been applied to the Governor from Texas in this forum alone. Nothing comparable written about John McCain. You see, Bush just does not command respect. Please John, win big for democracy, America, and common sense.
Let's see, the state of Texas executes women, the elderly, the poor, and now, the mentally retarded. And you my friend, are proud of this. If I had my way, I would separate the state of Texas from the rest of the union, so as not to be dirtied by IT and it's debased citizenry. As for George W. Bush, I say Seig Heil Mien Führer! Adolph Hitler was another human monster who took pleasure in the murder of the mentally retarded. What's cooking? Your worthless immortal soul.
Well gosh, thanks for the little nugget of wisdom Miss Hissy Fit. I'm beginning to suspect, Cerulean, that you are a member of the lunatic fringe "kill 'em all, let god sort them out" school of pro CPers. Maybe we can get you a date with one of the hairy chested men in Huntsville who bravely stick needles in people's arms, hoping they will die quickly so they can get back to watching the Jerry Springer show. Or maybe it's a woman. Probably wouldn't make any difference to you. Now there's a million dollar idea: the first live execution carried out on Jerry's show, featuring ring mistress Madam Cerulean, with her bull whip and black leather tights. So, according to you, all murders are first degree murders, punishable by death? If your answer to that question is yes, then I think you have pretty much forfeited your right to be taken seriously on this forum.
Well, thanks doc, for your interesting story. Here's a story for you. Recently, (I think it happened in Florida) two soccer dads got into an argument. They soon came to blows. The larger soccer dad beat the smaller one to death with his bare hands in front of both sons, even as the larger soccer dad's son was trying to pull him away. Now, when this man got up that morning, he was just as typical as you or I. He had a wife and kids, a well paying job and a house in the suburbs. He was not considered a violent man. In one tragic moment he lost control and brutally murdered an innocent man. Later, he was deeply remorseful. My point is, anyone can become a murderer, even the next door neighbor who walks his dog in the morning and goes to PTA meetings. Does this person fit the profile of the kind of murderer you saw that night? Of any "typical" murderer? They're not all the depraved, and foaming-at-the mouth stereotypes you see on TV. What should his punishment be?
Hell on earth doesn't come much closer than the inside of a supermax prison, so please don't bore me with how nice it is be in one, even with its few pathetic amenities. And would it so offend your sense of propriety to think that some condemned person just might find salvation through a genuine desire to reform himself? Many have you know. That is, unless you believe that all murder is capital murder, punishable by death. Is that what you believe? Not even George W. is that cold hearted. And your statement "We do set an inviolable premium on life. If you choose to take the life of another unlawfully, with malice and aforethought you get to pay with your life" is so illogical I barely have the strength to refute it.
What a stupid question. Of course I would save them. It's called self defense, and as I explained earlier that's not the same as dragging a defenseless man from his jail cell and coldly putting him to death. Belief in self defense does not contradict opposition to the death penalty as you pro DP mongers like to think. Another tired old argument. Executions are the most primitive form of first degree murder there is. Nothing could be more premeditated, especially for someone who has spent years on death row. Killing in self defense is almost never premeditated. And most importantly, it is not an institution like CP that murders with cold, machine like precision. As for your answer to my question, I can't seem to break the log jam of your confused simplistic thinking. You said "If people would stop murdering there would be no need for the death penalty." Correct. But who is going to stop first? Not the deranged John Gacys and Ted Bundys of the world. So I guess it will have to be us, the God fearing, law abiding citizens of this land. It's the price we pay for not being like them. As hard as it would be, we, the civilized ones, must set an inviolable premium on all human life, or else we make it that much easier for the next vicious murderer to dehumanize and kill his victim. Think about it: capital punishment actually increases the incidence of murder! Yes, I know. It feels so good to watch a condemned man die. Like I said, blood lust is a hard addiction to break. But be careful. There are places where we treat the addicted no matter how righteous they think their cause is. They are called mental institutions.
No. Read my post carefully! Comparing personal self-defense to capital punishment as societal self defense is a false analogy. Self defense is thrust unwillingly upon an intended victim, whereas you CP lackeys have plenty of time to think what you are about to do. Years in fact. Could anything be more coldly premeditated and malicious as that?
Thanks for your interesting post doc. You certainly know the culture there in W. North Carolina better than I do, although I've gotten a tantalizing glimpse of the Appalachian people through a series called the Foxfire books. There are about a dozen and each one portrays a different facet of rural mountain life (North Carolina included.) The picture that emerges is one of a people whose strength and resourcefulness in the face of daily adversity revels the original pioneering spirit. If you need something, you make it. If you want to be entertained, you tell a story. You do your own birthing, your own doctoring, your own spiritual ministrations. Of course they have their share of drunkenness, thievery and murder. Some people got their impression of this part of the country from the movie "Deliverance," where country people are made to look like the end product of inbreeding and too much corn liquor. So forgive me if I idealize a bit. After all, this country was founded on idealism. And like so many Americans, I want to preserve some small version of the way life was in this country before there where cars, TVs, and a thousand and one other things that make life easier, but maybe not more civilized.
Many of the paragraphs below are replies to some of the most bloodthirsty and sadistic people I have ever had the displeasure of meeting on the Internet. We were part of a pro-and-con death penalty forum hosted by Yahoo. Most of the participants were overwhelmingly pro capital punishment, so I had my hands full expressing a life long opposition to this charming brand of socially sanctioned murder. Many also professed to be devout Christians, so some of my responses are not Christian friendly. I'll let them stand as examples of the hostility one can be drawn into when participating in such groups. I finally quit in disgust after listening to "Christians" turn their savior into a modern day executioner, smiling beatifically as he presses the plunger on a syringe full of lethal chemicals and sending another poor devil to his just reward. The letters are replies to three bone stupid conservative editorials appearing in The Washington Times and a short lived local rag called The Public Enterprise. Now, five years later, it all seems so pre 9/11.
3/21/00
Editor
The Washington Times
Sir:
It is sad and ironic that Madalyn Murray O'Hare, who did not suffer fools gladly, had the misfortune of giving birth to one. I refer to Seth Hettena's March 15th article "Famous atheist's son tries to revive prayer banned in his name". William J. Murray employs the fatuous rhetoric of a bygone era when he implies that the opponents of school prayer are "collectivists bent on the destruction of America". He further implies that such opposition is, alas, a "sin". I and a lot of other good Marylanders who oppose school prayer cordially invite Mr. Murray to return to the conservative bastions of Virginia from which he came, where he is free to stir up the kind of religious mischief not much welcomed in Maryland. If he is so intent on making a case for religiosity, let him prevail upon Gov. James Gilmore to suspend the death penalty so beloved and much practiced in his home state. Executions and the public profession of Christ's teachings make an odious combination.
mwmayer
9/8/84
Mr. Frank Pierce Young
The Public Enterprise
Sir:
Thomas French Norton is a confused man. His simple minded editorial about the Holocaust reveals him as a person with a blinkered historical prospective, incapable of critical thinking. What a very odd way of completely missing the point! Someone should sit down with Mr. Norton and patiently explain to him why the Holocaust looms so large in contemporary consciousness, why it was so much more than an act of genocide. If no one can be found to illuminate Mr. Norton, then perhaps he will bother reading some of the recent literature about those who engineered the holocaust and those who suffered it. But I doubt whether anything would carry much conviction for a man who apparently believes that genocide is just one of those historical inevitabilities that human beings capriciously inflict on one another. You would think that the continued incidence of genocide in the world, of which Mr. Norton labors to cite example after example, would persuade him that the problem requires not less, but more study. To accuse the Israelis of practicing genocide in Lebanon and then yawningly compare the Holocaust to the internment of Japanese-Americans is just the kind of muddle-headed thinking a holocaust Memorial might correct. Taxpayer's money? For a fraction of the cost of a single B-1 bomber, we could have a facility that just might help bring moral illumination and tolerance for cultural diversity to a world bereft of both.
The old "everybody is guilty" implication of Mr. Norton's editorial is a thoroughly banal rhetorical device. If everybody is guilty of genocide then nobody is guilty! The moral order collapses under such thinking and questions of accountability and justice become problematic in the extreme. What a bleak prospect for humanity if, as Mr. Norton apparently believes, a Klaus Barbe or a Josef Mengele can step forth, murder millions with impunity, and then melt safely back into the faceless hordes of their insouciant brethren. After an interval of a generation or so, the criminal descendents of a Stalin, or a Hitler, or a Pol Pot, lured by the sloth and idle malignity of "the herd" are beckoned forth to murder anew, like the grim fulfillment of Santayana's warning about what happens to a people who forget their past.
Does Mr. Norton believe there is no remedy for the state of affairs he so glibly portrays? Does he really believe that neither individuals nor countries are capable of bootstrapping themselves into realms of higher moral comprehension? He at least concedes that "the memory of the Holocaust must not be allowed to fade". Well, in order for it not to fade, the extant records must be widely available for study. I believe that the architects of the Holocaust Memorial ask only one question. Can the next, possibly imminent, act of genocide be prevented? Only, they might answer, if a dedicated, informed world citizenry rises up and roars with indignation at those who begin perpetrating such atrocities.
Learn, to the last quotidian detail, what happened to the victims of Nazi aggression between the years 1933-1945 and you will have the best documented case of genocide in our time and an instrument for preventing it in the future. Let the next act of wanton mass murder happen in silence and we are all, indeed, accomplices.
mwmayer
9/5/93
Editor
The Washington Times
Sir:
I see that your loathsome little chatterbox of conservative hate mongering is at it again. I refer to Samuel Francis’s Amy Biehl column of 9/3/93. This latest specimen of degenerate opinionating stands in a category all its own. From the comfort of his air conditioned office, the craven Mr. Francis can content himself with vilifying a young woman who is no longer around to defend herself. There are so many wrongful and hurtful things in this column as to be unworthy of refutation. The imbecilic use of the word “bubblehead” (eleven times) is surely the sign of mental enfeeblement. And the appalling ignorance of the history and true state of affairs in South Africa left me dumbfounded.
But after all, one does not read Sam Francis for illumination. One reads him with the same guilty fascination of a spectator at a freak show. The freakish Mr. Francis has contorted himself into shapes so at variance with simple human decency as to be hardly recognizable. One blanches at the sight, and then moves on quickly to more wholesome fare.
So, here’s to all the shrill and heartless pedagogues of the world. Here’s to you, Samuel Francis. You have confirmed far better than the lamentations of Melanie Jacobs that we do, indeed, need a million more Amy Bhiels. Thank God, there is only one of you.
mwmayer
George W. Bush is the most unworthy, disgusting man ever to run for the presidency. And anyway, how could I ever vote for a man who has a mouth that looks like an asshole?The people of South Carolina are sheep, and that's the truth of the matter. They are taught (indoctrinated) at an early age to revere without question the Word from On High and it doesn't matter if that word comes from a pulpit or a godamned TV set. They can secede from the Union again as far as I'm concerned and create their own bloody little racist Gulag where they won't pollute the rest of us.
Cue-card boy. The Shamed One. Country Club Republican. The little dummy. Smirking little imbecile. Only slightly smarter than Dan Quayle. Shrub. Dubya. All of these lovely epithets have been applied to the Governor from Texas in this forum alone. Nothing comparable written about John McCain. You see, Bush just does not command respect. Please John, win big for democracy, America, and common sense.
Let's see, the state of Texas executes women, the elderly, the poor, and now, the mentally retarded. And you my friend, are proud of this. If I had my way, I would separate the state of Texas from the rest of the union, so as not to be dirtied by IT and it's debased citizenry. As for George W. Bush, I say Seig Heil Mien Führer! Adolph Hitler was another human monster who took pleasure in the murder of the mentally retarded. What's cooking? Your worthless immortal soul.
Well gosh, thanks for the little nugget of wisdom Miss Hissy Fit. I'm beginning to suspect, Cerulean, that you are a member of the lunatic fringe "kill 'em all, let god sort them out" school of pro CPers. Maybe we can get you a date with one of the hairy chested men in Huntsville who bravely stick needles in people's arms, hoping they will die quickly so they can get back to watching the Jerry Springer show. Or maybe it's a woman. Probably wouldn't make any difference to you. Now there's a million dollar idea: the first live execution carried out on Jerry's show, featuring ring mistress Madam Cerulean, with her bull whip and black leather tights. So, according to you, all murders are first degree murders, punishable by death? If your answer to that question is yes, then I think you have pretty much forfeited your right to be taken seriously on this forum.
Well, thanks doc, for your interesting story. Here's a story for you. Recently, (I think it happened in Florida) two soccer dads got into an argument. They soon came to blows. The larger soccer dad beat the smaller one to death with his bare hands in front of both sons, even as the larger soccer dad's son was trying to pull him away. Now, when this man got up that morning, he was just as typical as you or I. He had a wife and kids, a well paying job and a house in the suburbs. He was not considered a violent man. In one tragic moment he lost control and brutally murdered an innocent man. Later, he was deeply remorseful. My point is, anyone can become a murderer, even the next door neighbor who walks his dog in the morning and goes to PTA meetings. Does this person fit the profile of the kind of murderer you saw that night? Of any "typical" murderer? They're not all the depraved, and foaming-at-the mouth stereotypes you see on TV. What should his punishment be?
Hell on earth doesn't come much closer than the inside of a supermax prison, so please don't bore me with how nice it is be in one, even with its few pathetic amenities. And would it so offend your sense of propriety to think that some condemned person just might find salvation through a genuine desire to reform himself? Many have you know. That is, unless you believe that all murder is capital murder, punishable by death. Is that what you believe? Not even George W. is that cold hearted. And your statement "We do set an inviolable premium on life. If you choose to take the life of another unlawfully, with malice and aforethought you get to pay with your life" is so illogical I barely have the strength to refute it.
What a stupid question. Of course I would save them. It's called self defense, and as I explained earlier that's not the same as dragging a defenseless man from his jail cell and coldly putting him to death. Belief in self defense does not contradict opposition to the death penalty as you pro DP mongers like to think. Another tired old argument. Executions are the most primitive form of first degree murder there is. Nothing could be more premeditated, especially for someone who has spent years on death row. Killing in self defense is almost never premeditated. And most importantly, it is not an institution like CP that murders with cold, machine like precision. As for your answer to my question, I can't seem to break the log jam of your confused simplistic thinking. You said "If people would stop murdering there would be no need for the death penalty." Correct. But who is going to stop first? Not the deranged John Gacys and Ted Bundys of the world. So I guess it will have to be us, the God fearing, law abiding citizens of this land. It's the price we pay for not being like them. As hard as it would be, we, the civilized ones, must set an inviolable premium on all human life, or else we make it that much easier for the next vicious murderer to dehumanize and kill his victim. Think about it: capital punishment actually increases the incidence of murder! Yes, I know. It feels so good to watch a condemned man die. Like I said, blood lust is a hard addiction to break. But be careful. There are places where we treat the addicted no matter how righteous they think their cause is. They are called mental institutions.
No. Read my post carefully! Comparing personal self-defense to capital punishment as societal self defense is a false analogy. Self defense is thrust unwillingly upon an intended victim, whereas you CP lackeys have plenty of time to think what you are about to do. Years in fact. Could anything be more coldly premeditated and malicious as that?
Thanks for your interesting post doc. You certainly know the culture there in W. North Carolina better than I do, although I've gotten a tantalizing glimpse of the Appalachian people through a series called the Foxfire books. There are about a dozen and each one portrays a different facet of rural mountain life (North Carolina included.) The picture that emerges is one of a people whose strength and resourcefulness in the face of daily adversity revels the original pioneering spirit. If you need something, you make it. If you want to be entertained, you tell a story. You do your own birthing, your own doctoring, your own spiritual ministrations. Of course they have their share of drunkenness, thievery and murder. Some people got their impression of this part of the country from the movie "Deliverance," where country people are made to look like the end product of inbreeding and too much corn liquor. So forgive me if I idealize a bit. After all, this country was founded on idealism. And like so many Americans, I want to preserve some small version of the way life was in this country before there where cars, TVs, and a thousand and one other things that make life easier, but maybe not more civilized.
An Eye For An Eye
"You don't try and stop someone's drug habit when you're busy smoking pot, do you?" Thank you, MCD. You have summed up, in one simple sentence, the appalling contradiction faced by supporters of the death penalty. They have never offered a logical resolution to this contradiction.
Talk about illogical. You assert that MCD's ideas are "honorable." Doesn't that imply that yours are dishonorable? And all this poppycock about the "young and naive." If we had more youthful idealism in this country and less middle aged cynicism, we would all be a lot better off. And as for our "tolerance level" for violence in this country, might I suggest that when executions become as routine as buying a loaf of bread at the local 7-11, we are adding immeasurably to that tolerance. This, on top of incredibly violent movies, video games and TV shows. And nothing is more "trite" than the death penalty. It's the feel good, easy way out for a society that has lost its moral bearings. Think about it, DP advocates: executions might just be contributing to the murder rate in this country. Abolish it now!!!!
Doc, in reference to an earlier post of yours, anyone who requires the execution of another human being in order to achieve "closure" isn't much more advanced than the murderer being executed.
Doc, I'm beginning to think that the source of your corn pone wisdom comes from sitting around in your NC outhouse picking lint out of your navel. If Cerulean is the best person you know, then pal you need to make some new friends. What bothers me about the two of you is that there is no light at the end of your tunnel. All I read is doom and gloom and endless horror stories. And your response is always so predictable: Kill, Kill, Kill! Years from now when people look back on this era, they will be as disgusted with our DP obsession as we today are disgusted by slavery. Doc, a train called "Enlightened Civilization" is pulling up in a town near you. Don't let it pass you by.
Ah, come on sore loser. Want to know why you and doc lost this debate? It's because good always triumphs over evil. When confronted with the sheer savagery of your opinions, you and doc were forced to slink back to your lairs like foul things in the night. Whether you like it or not Cerulean, the young and idealistic in this country are going to build you an new, enlightened society. You can either join or stay behind in your broken down tar paper shacks, dreaming of the "good old days" of lynchings and electrocutions
Well looky here! Cerulean is walking off in a huff! Unable to win her debates through genuine logic or persuasion, she has resorted to name calling. Talk about immature. Goodbye old girl! Please take your dildo and vibrating sex toys with you. No wonder your such a lousy debater, with one hand on the keyboard and the other fondling your crotch, getting off on visions of men being fried in the electric chair and nigras swinging from trees! Now if we can just get rid of your drooling idiot friend raventears, we might just have a half way intelligent debate on this forum.
It's heuristic 77 doc. Heuristic69 was an earlier incarnation of mine that I decided to abandon. I have read the posts of MCD, and he doesn't seem to be playing games at all. He has replied, point by point, to your and Cerulean's condescending posts with patience and intelligence. Maybe that's what bothers you: a thoughtful poster with a genuine reverence for life. And I think bush has made a telling point here too.
"Abolish capital punishment first and then we can turn our attention to the problem of murder, immune from the charges of hypocrisy. Having ascended to the moral high ground that you the other pro DP folks have so shamefully abandoned, we won't be distracted with the messy business of executions."
This was in reply to a specific question launched by Cerulean, and I think it is a good one. So there is nothing frivolous going on here. You should be glad that we are taking your posts seriously enough to give them the quality replies that we have. Now if you and Cerulean would do the same without being preachy (please, no more "you're just young and inexperienced, some day you'll see the light") we might just have an intelligent debate.
...oh and one more thing cutey pie. Seems that what you're really pissed at is that you can't resort to the old fashioned justice of your ancestors. No more "nigras" swinging from trees right doc? The very worst violators of common decency in this country always seem to come from the Death Penalty Belt (formerly known as the Bible Belt). Gawd almighty, I can smell the fresh air already!
Ah come on guys you're breaking my heart. If my last few posts have been rude and abrasive, it's because of your own hateful name calling and stereotyping. Remember doc and Cerulean, I did try to connect with you on a more friendly basis. All I got for my troubles was to be labeled a "suck up." I won't make that mistake again. And Cerulean dear, I'm 53 years old, so I out rank you by 11 years. I grew up with the civil rights movement and I remember segregation and the horror of the Jim Crow laws first hand. It was you, Cerulean, who used the term "nigra" in one of your posts, and I thought, oh shit, here we go. Ruffle up a white southern lady's feathers and out comes her pent up racism. That is a hateful term in any context, a substitute for the really bad N word. So please don't lecture me about goodness and propriety. Want to see your worst enemy? Take a look in the mirror.
{{I want to apologize for not deleting that post sooner. I have since deleted them, and they will not be tolerated on this board. Post # 351 was completely unacceptable. I hope that in the future, we do not read any posts that have even an inkling of a sexual innuendo, let alone what Bush wrote today. I apologize doc, cerulean, mad cow, and everyone else who might have read that. Bush is no longer a member of this club, and I hope anyone that was thinking of leaving, will reconsider and please stay. There has been quite a bit of good debate, and I would hate to see one person ruin it for everyone. Once again, I apologize to all of you that read Bush's post. I wish I had been here to delete it and him sooner.}}
Well, I guess they'll have to kick us all out doc, since you and Cerulean have more than distinguished yourselves in violating the terms of service. Doc, I'm sitting here smoking a nice, hand rolled cigarette and sipping a glass of cold Chablis, laughing my ass off at you and Cerulean. You don't like it that I have returned to both of you the spite you're so willing to dish out? Tough shit assholes.
I do not understand this impulse of yours to attack and demean a fellow poster. I have to agree with MCD: you are an angry man, lashing out at people who disagree with you. "There is beauty in this world, but there is none in you." Oh really? And just who are you to make such a sweeping statement? Better look into your own dark heart, doc.
{{I'm afraid you won't keep me. Thank you for trying though to keep it civil. Cerulean has left already and so will I. That kind of attack hurts which is why these jerks make them .. to hurt. Too often in such a heated question, those on one side of the issue accept and reward one who trashes their opponent; no matter if the means he uses are despicable. This is the problem of activism. To paraphrase Philip Wyle, it is incapable of "seeking the answer rather than proclaiming it." It also has to demonize those that disagree. (See heuristic above)}}
Let's not confuse patriotism with having to condone a debauched political process that allows capital punishment to flourish. I love the country whose founding documents include the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the Declaration of Independence. They contain some of the most stirring language ever written for the cause of freedom and human rights. Bear in mind that even advanced democracies like England and Germany do not have a First Amendment. Freedom of expression can and is routinely curbed in these countries. For example, Mein Kampf is banned in Germany. Perhaps that's understandable in a country that was nearly destroyed by the Nazi regime and still suffers from the shame of that era. But in this country, the marketplace of ideas is wide open and we can read and discuss anything, regardless of how repugnant, or critical of the prevailing political powers in office, it may be. As for the American flag, I agree that it's just a symbol. It is the above founding documents that are the holy of holys and it is they, and the freedoms they guarantee, that Americans have fought and died for. Remember, the so called "flag burning" amendment was recently defeated. This is one of the greatest affirmations of our freedoms that I can think of. The Constitution survived a frontal assault by people who wanted to use it for their own political agenda. You now have the right to stand on any street corner in America and burn the flag if, for example, that is the only way left for you to express your feelings of anger or disgust for this country or its policies. A right guaranteed by the very flag whose symbol it is! Burning the flag is abhorrent to many Americans but as long as we can do so, all our other freedoms are in safe keeping.
But I and a lot of other good Americans are disgusted with the actions of their government. Our government is not our country. Our "government" levies taxes, creates social policy, fights in undeclared wars, and in the case of capital punishment, murders in the name of us all. I am not less of a patriot for severely criticizing my government for any of these policies. Our "country" (and its founding documents) is the safe keeper of the greatest freedoms ever granted a governed people and for that I am eternally grateful. What I want is for this country, the last "superpower" on earth, to take its rightful place within the community of other great nations by abolishing capital punishment, a practice that disgraces us everywhere. Only then can we pursue with a clear conscience the cause of human rights everywhere.
No my dear Ms. Cerulean, I am not crusading for murderers, but really, more for people like you, who hold themselves up as ethical paragons but in truth have lost their moral compass. Spare the murderer not for the murderer's sake but for the greater cause of our and society's innate decency and goodness. If we are the civilized ones, we must set the high moral benchmark that compels us to spare human life even in ones so unworthy as an Oliver Cruz or a Gary Graham, just as surely as they and their kind would not! That is what marks the difference between them and us, and it is a burden that all civilized people must carry. Surely you can see what I am trying to say. If not us, WHO? Re-read your last post. How eager you are to see executions carried out! Your sympathy would not even extend to some hypothetical family member or loved one! Do you wonder that I oppose the death penalty? All too often, I have seen it make monsters out of otherwise decent people like you.
And that brings up a disturbing thought. If Bush is elected president, he will not be taken seriously by other world leaders. Can you imagine smirking little George sitting across the table from other truly mature leaders of the free world? It could take years before he establishes his credentials with our allies, if ever. And what about our would-be roving ambassador of good will, Dick Cheney. Could he ever go to South Africa and look Nelson Mandela in the eye, having bravely voted against his release from prison? Talk about a contrast in stature: Nelson Mandela, and the laughable weenie boy team of Bush and Cheney.
Agreed. We are way off topic here. And while BNB may have made himself unwelcome on this forum (I have not seen the offending post) his often very eloquent arguments against the death penalty should not be discounted. I may draw upon them in my own future posts against the death penalty. And by the way, an attack upon a poster's argument should not be confused with an attack upon the poster himself. This distinction should be obvious. But if anyone makes an argument that is illogical, contradictory, or just plain repulsive, then it is fair game for all the powers of rebuttal at my (or any other poster's) command. Again, this is not an attack upon the poster. Check your facts, your rhetoric, and your sense of common decency before you push the "post message" button.
As I have stated before on this forum, there is no need for personal attacks. But I have read the exchange of posts between you and BNB and I believe the name calling began with you. You referred to him as "Mr. No Balls" a "suck up", a "compassionless cretin," etc. Doc called him "a worthless piece of pig shit." My my, these are pretty naughty words for people who live in glass houses. The point is, if you don't want to be flamed, don't start flaming yourself.
Let's put this debate in prospective: some day (I hope within my lifetime) capital punishment will be banned in this country forever. It will go the way of slavery, child labor, germ warfare research and a host of other social evils that are the hallmark of a pathological society. Unfortunately, it may require the execution of hundreds of more people before Americans have had their gut full of it. By that time I fear the harm to the moral fiber of this country may be irreversible. More than crime, drugs, or pornography, capital punishment has corrupted the soul of America.
Please, Madame Cerulean, no more scenarios. What a lurid imagination you have! You've been watching too much L.A. Law or something! In time, I suspect, I will run out of ways of coping with your remorseless and self righteous attacks on all that is unholy in our land. I see that you are a gardener. Go out and eat a tomato, squash a few Japanese beetles, then take a cold shower. There are not enough days left to see your crusade through to its final crowning victory against the numberless devils and demons you have conjured up. You will be very busy indeed for a long time. And this is what I find so disheartening about your posts. You and the others (attention Tia Marie) are so ready to consign our society to the insatiable machinery of death. Once you have begun there will never be an end to it. Always, there will be enemies lurking, like a commie under every bed. However you rationalize it, it comes out a base and vile thing in the end. One day, capital punishment will be banished in this country for ever. I absolutely, positively guarantee that this will happen. Unfortunately, capital punishment has become for you a means without an end that betters us all. I can almost hear you whisper, "let there be more murders, that we may have more executions!" What will happen when you and Tia can no longer take up your knitting around the public place of execution, cheering as the head drops into the basket and patting yourselves on the back for having seen justice done!
Look. For the first time in almost a year, the Bush facade is finally crumbling. A whole year of unmitigated gall and smirking stupidity is unraveling. You want to know why? Because Bush's handlers have stumbled badly, so naturally Bush, the epitome of the "other directed" man, has stumbled too. The puppeteers have got their strings tangled, leaving poor George to flop around like the dressed up little dummy that he is. What a disgusting spectacle.
This old argument from the stand point of deterrence is a lost cause. Texas executes more people than any other state. If the DP were truly a deterrent, we should be seeing huge reductions in the murder rate. In the case of Dallas, one of the largest cities in Texas, just the opposite is true. I argue from a different perspective. By demonizing the criminal, it makes it that much easier for you to justify his murder er, that is, his execution. This is precisely what many murderers do to their victims. Dehumanizing them makes it easier to kill them. The state makes a pretty poor example for the rest of us. Until the law givers of this country make all human life inviolable, there will be no higher moral example to which we may look for an affirmation of our most cherished values. The death penalty may actually be causing an increase in the rate of murder.
Yeah, I too have felt a twinge of pity now and then for Bush. Like a prodigal son returning home to reverse the fallen fortunes of DAD, Bush resembles nothing so much as a blind man stumbling towards an uncertain destiny that others have crafted for him. In Bush's mind, he must win or lose all. His party, the nation, the world, and especially DAD, are all spectators in his mythical struggle for redemption. He has foreseen that if he loses, his descent into obscurity will be swift and sure. For him there will not even be the consoling joys of elder statesmanship, usually reserved for presidential losers, because he is no statesman and has no original ideas. No one will want his advice, or care to listen to his astute observations on foreign policy. Texans hate a loser and he will be quickly abandoned. So I understand Bush's desperation and ruthlessness, but that is also why he would make a terrible president and why I oppose him utterly and without reservation. Presidential campaigns are no place to find yourself. The presidency must always be reserved for those with high ideals and keen analytical minds, both indispensable in this chaotic world, and Bush has neither. So my pity tends to vanish pretty quickly. The stakes are just too damn high.
Correct. There's a growing perception that there is, indeed, something fundamentally wrong George W. Bush. Is he dyslexic? Is he arrogant and spoiled? Is he mentally ill? Or is he just plain stupid? Bush increasingly shows signs that he is incapable of coping with the complexities of a presidential campaign. His appearances on yesterday's news programs were simply appalling. He was pale, unfocused, and nearly incoherent. Having bobbed and weaved his way this far, he is finding out that there are no more refuges from a media that daily spotlights his incomprehensible bunglings. The pressure is on, and Bush is going soft like a bowl of soggy cornflakes. As far as I'm concerned, his policy differences with Gore are irrelevant. Bush, the man, is a pathetic, shambling wreck. He will need Colin Powell and other stronger men to prop him up and lend him the aura of leadership. But Bush the man will never lead us anywhere. He will only continue to confound us with his little-boy-lost stammerings. I look to Gore to administer the coup de gras during the debates so that Bush will never again think of running for higher office. What the hell is wrong with Bush? The undecided voters in this country had better find out before the election and vote accordingly. Presidential shoes are mighty big. George W. Bush can never fill them.
Dear Camiglia,
"Actually, Bush would probably make a competent, if not great president." Oh really? Maybe your keen analytical eye has seen something I haven't. I see the weakest, most laughable example of unearned privilege who wants the biggest unearned plum of all. Bush will never be presidential without his buddies Powell and Schwarzkopf there to lend him the aura of strength and respectability. And you with your love of language and great literature! Quick, how do you pronounce "subliminal"? Who is your favorite philosopher? Want to see the U.S. government plunge headlong into the messy business of capital punishment? And you can bet that an endorsement from you would only make a homophobic, anti-intellectual guy like Georgie boy cringe. It's okay if you're not voting for Gore. I may vote for Nader myself. But please, take a good look at this guy. Can you see him sitting across the table from a shrewd and cynical leader like Putin? Could Dick Cheney ever go to South Africa and look Nelson Mandela in the eye? I can state with near certainty that Bush will today make a shambles of logic and the English language. That does not bode well for the presidency or the country. Four years of Bush's little-boy-lost stammerings is a scary prospect. It should scare you to.
Yours,
mwmayer
Lazy-o with his pathetic little boy swagger is another Republican pig who thinks he is entitled to a seat in the Senate, the way Bush thinks he's entitled to the presidency. How shocked and confused they must be! How funny to hear their impotent little squeaks of dismay! They thought the impeachment would be Clinton's only legacy. Surprise! It's going to be their legacy. The mountain of bullshit they put us all through for a whole year has come to settle on their own unsubstantial roofs. What's that crashing sound? It's the sound of Bush and company being swept to oblivion on a tidal wave of filth.
Well, I'll tell you Mr. celador2, I could care less about the policy differences between Bush and Gore. It's Bush the man that I'm worried about. Bush could never be presidential without his buddies Powell and Schwarzkoph to lend him the aura of leadership, and to prop him up when he makes yet another assault on the English language. Bush the man will never lead us anywhere. All he'll do is continue to confound us and the rest of the world with his little-boy-lost stammerings. Can you see Bush sitting across the table from a shrewd and cynical guy like Putin? Could Dick Cheney with his unforgivably awful voting record ever go to South Africa and look Nelson Mandela in the eye? Bush simply and finally does not and cannot rise to the stature of a true world leader. Support Gore because he has a mind, whereas Bush has demonstrated time and again that he manifestly does not. Have I convinced you? Huh? Probably not. Republicans these days are content with mediocrity and are all to eager to inflict it on the rest of us.
Bush is discovering that the sides of a toilet bowl are too slippery to crawl out of. Cheney, of course, found this out long ago and has since given up as he floats serenely amongst the piss and turds like a bloated cow. Nothing can save them now. FLUSH. Welcome Gore, Lieberman, and America to a new era of sanity and decency.
Well, Mr. celador2, I know a lost cause when I see one. I'm not going try and convince you to vote for Gore. And if you and the entire Republican party leadership can't admit that Clinton has amply paid his debt to society, then that is what I meant by "people like you."
The Republicans could write a modern day version of "The Emperor's New Clothes," starring the stupidest man ever to run for president. Look at the ribbing Dan Quayle took for his few malapropisms. Bush has a list of them as long as your arm. See "The Complete Bushisms" compiled by Jackob Weisberg at http://www.salon.com. We Have Seen Bush Naked, and it is a Revolting Sight.
This is true. But it is certainly very curious. Karen Hughes has said that only top Bush "lieutenants" had excess to these tapes. There seems to be only two possibilities. One, this is a clumsy Republican attempt at planting incriminating material within the Gore organization (authorized by Hughes herself) , or two, there is a mole in the Bush organization. Either way, it does not bode well for the Republicans.
Sounds like a Republican plant if you ask me. If this material was "illegally obtained" and subsequently used by the Gore people, the Republicans could have made a huge and embarrassing fuss over it. More dirty tricks?
Yes, the founders of the world's great religions were humble people. It is their hubris maddened followers like Dr. Laura who have given religion a bad name. Are people so empty that they need a finger wagging philistine like her to give them direction in life? I have made reference several times on this and other forums to the classic study of human character, The Lonely Crowd by David Riesman. Here, you will find out why it is infinitely better to be an "inner directed man/woman" as opposed to an "other directed man/woman." "Inner directed" means you take your moral cues from a hard won, deeply valued set of beliefs, immune from ideology or propaganda. Religion is signpost pointing to a lifelong exploration of core human values, not an end in itself. Dr. Laura is nothing new. We have seen her kind so many times before. I am always astonished at how many people enjoy being brow beaten and humiliated by self styled evangelists like her. She obviously relishes this role of scolding martinet. Thanks, but I will abandon her amidst the dusty, worm eaten "other directed" homilies of a bygone era.
Oh I see. Well gosh! She's a doctor of something! Doesn't matter in what. This is a perfect example of the intellectual sloppiness of Bush lovers like you. It appears you are awed by titles alone, not substance. She could have a Doctorate in Sewage Treatment and you would still accord her the status of Wise One. But people like you love to be preached to by morally deficient creatures like "Dr." Laura. You are so eager to bow down and kiss her Gucci booted feet!
Don't make me laugh. Bush is an enthusiastic supporter of the death penalty, so please don't imply that he just might of commuted a death sentence if he had the power to do so. And the Texas Board of Parole and Probation is staffed by Bush appointees. Bush made sure they were all pro DP as a condition of appointment who would provide precisely the verdict that Bush would want in capital cases. He's such a coward. He can call himself a "compassionate conservative" while overseeing dozens of executions, and then claim its all the fault of the P&P Board who's members he personally hand picked. Never forget. George laughed while Karla Faye Tucker, a far better Christian than him, died. George will have a lot to answer for if he ever reaches those pearly gates.
I also belong to the I HATE BUSH FAN CLUB. Sure. Drop on by anytime. "Bush is the one who will restore integrity to the Oval Office, not Al Gore." How can he do that, when all he has is the borrowed integrity of others? Bush himself has no integrity. Having integrity implies a mind capable of reflection. I have never seen or heard a Bush pronouncement that demonstrated thought or introspection. Bush is a perfect example of the "other directed" man, as opposed to the "inner directed" man. In other words, a man who takes his moral and political directions from outside himself and not a core of deeply held ideals. See The Lonely Crowd by David Riesman for a full development of this theme. Government by cue-card is a pre-ordained failure.
Manspeas only wishes to bring to your obstinate attention the disgusting hypocrisy of W. and the shocking truth of his precipitous decline in the public opinion polls. Bush is going to lose this election. Not surprising. He's been a loser all his life.
Editor
The Washington Times
The Clintons exonerated. Thanks Washington Times (America's Toilet Paper), for filling the air with your outhouse effluvium over the last eight years. Here's a big "Thank you" to Wesley Pruden and his underwear fetish of a cartoonist Bill Garner. You guys are going to be VERY busy for the next four years! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
mwmayer
The release of this report amply demonstrates the Republican Party's utter unworthiness to govern. History will record that never was there a more dirty partisan effort to unseat and discredit a president with one of the highest approval ratings in the last twenty years. How shall we repay them for the mountain of bullshit they've put us through? This report clears the way for a Gore-Clinton victory in November. I fervently hope the Repukes lose the House and Senate as well. They have earned the utter contempt of us all. Go Democrats, and let the Republicans slink back to their lair like foul things in the night.
Bravo. Ken Starr will forever be remembered as the little creep who pawed through a mountain of dirty underwear, clutching the most soiled ones to his face and breathing in deeply! Listen to him squeak in ecstasy! Look at Barr, Gingrich, Delay, Hyde and the rest of them masturbating furiously while reading Ken's report! They wanted to deny Clinton an honorable legacy. How ironic that their legacy will stink like rectal mucus for all posterity to gag on!
I want to see George and Jeb Bush, Katherine Harris, William Bennett, Mary Matlin, Ralph Reed, Wesley Prudin, Cal Thomas, and Phyllis Schlafly stripped naked and bent over chairs with their lubricated assholes prominently displayed. Enter the king hell legion of ass fuckers with twelve inch barbed cocks, who sodomize them one at a time. Listen to them squeal!
There are three things George W. Bush must do before he gets my support:
1. He must do penance, real penance for his appearance at Bob Jones University. To this end, I purpose that the Governor be stripped to the waist and publicly flogged by Cardinal John O'Conner. Yes, Bush must be given the bastinado before I begin to feel even a teensy, weensy bit sorry for him.
2. He must make a pilgrimage to the grave site of Karla Faye Tucker, whose plea for mercy Bush made a mockery of, and beg on his bended knee for forgiveness. In addition, he must disband forever the villainous Texas Pardons and Parole board.
3. He must, as John McCain had the courage to do, renounce the odious religious right movement in its entirety.
If he will not submit to at least one of these conditions, then I say, let him be locked up in some infernal Men's Room from Hell, where he must perform the duties of a lavatory assistant for all eternity!
With John Ashcroft's approval of the closed circuit televising of McVeigh's execution, this country moves a little deeper into the quagmire of brutality and barbarism. What's next? Pay-per-view executions? This is precisely the foul degeneracy that countries which practice capital punishment fall into. And anyone who needs to witness the execution of another human being in order to achieve "closure" isn't much better than the person being executed. The no doubt good Christians in Oklahoma City who will flock to this disgusting spectacle like ancient Romans to a gladiatorial show have betrayed the teachings of their savior! Shame on them! And shame on all of us for letting the real benchmark of a civilized country, the inviolability of human life, fall into the gutter.
That many people are seriously debating whether or not to publicly televise McVeigh's execution shows us the filthy cesspool that Americans have fallen into because of capital punishment. More than drugs, pornography, or criminal violence, capital punishment has destroyed the moral fiber of this country. Anyone who requires the witnessing of an execution in order to achieve "closure" is no better than the person being executed. And I bet they're all good Christians in Oklahoma City. If so, they have betrayed the teachings of their Savior! Watch McVeigh die, take comfort from it, and you will be forever dirtied and your religion profaned! I myself plan to be as far away as possible from all sources of news media on May 16th. Execution as entertainment? Good-bye, America.
This is typical of the sort of misrepresentation that advocates of the death penalty like to indulge in. Does episcojew really think that spending the rest of your life getting fucked in the ass, beaten, stabbed, spit upon and intimidated is just a peachy keen way of ending up? Even with their few, pathetic amenities, lifers in a supermax prison are, indeed in a dark and fearsome hell, far worse than the quick escape of death by lethal injection. Death, my dear episcojew, is most certainly not the most ominous of all things.
Yes, they get three squares a day. Or do you purpose that we starve them to death? As for the choice of death or a lifetime of involuntary anal intercourse and mandatory blow jobs, enforced by a three hundred pound sadistic, AIDS infected, sexual predator, I would gladly choose death. These things are happening in every prison in America every day, and if you don't know any better, you are worse than naive. You are malicious for propagating this moronic, sing-song version of prison-as-motel-suite-with-TV-and-room-service hogwash. The thing that frightens me about people like you, Madame episcojew, is that you are so close to taking a kind of primitive delight in torture and debasement. This does not recommend itself to enlightened civilization. If you and I don't set an inviolable value on human life, who will? John Wayne Gacy? Yes, let's put certain criminals away forever. They are truly punished and our hands are not stained with their blood.
{{....but my point is, that for many of them, life on the inside is much better than their life on the outside where they didn't have food, water, heat or air, cable television or computers.}}
This "life is better in prison" argument just boggles my mind. I have heard it so many times from the pro-death crowd. And yes, I guarantee you that I know more about life in prison than you do. Life in prison is the never ending monotony of rigidly imposed routine. It is the systematic destruction of everything basic to human happiness. It is life measured out one monotonous day after another forever, in the case of life without parole, combined with the daily terror of defending against rape and murder. No amenity like a lousy fucking TV or computer can ever makeup for that. It is a fearful punishment that fits the crime of murder, that we ourselves don't become murderers. Put away your Uncle Wiggly books episcojew and admit what any thirteen year old could tell you: life in prison is a brutal and terrifying affair.
{{As for "setting an inviolable value on human life," their life lost that value when they took the life of another.}}
Oh really? And just who the hell are you to decide when a human life no longer has value? Don't we, as a Christian country, surrender that prerogative to a higher authority? You go by the name "episcojew". I assume you are Jewish. Isn't it instructive that Israel, one of the most beleaguered countries on earth, has abolished the death penalty? This in a country that experiences deadly mortar attacks and suicide bombers on a daily basis. What does that tell you about humility and restraint? About abiding with the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law? Modern Israel is a young nation, but thousands of years old spiritually. We would be wise to follow her example.
Your the one leading a sheltered life, madam episcojew. Here's an excerpt from a book entitled Going Up The River by Joseph Hallinan. Don't take my word for the terrible reality of prison life; read this book. Hallinan is speaking of a single prison, Pelican Bay in Crescent City, California. "Pelican Bay inmates have had their arms broken, their eyes gouged out, their brains splattered." Sounds like fun.
So, you are willing to admit that at least one prison in America is not the equivalent of a Club Med Caribbean cruise. I submit that all supermax prisons, built to house the most violent criminals in our midst, are substantially the same. In a review of the book I mentioned, Going Up The River by Joseph Hallinan, Michael Massing made the following comment. "Each prison Hallinan visits seems to feature its own form of depravity. At the state prison at Corcoran, Calif., rival gang members were pitted against each other in 'human cockfights' while guards placed bets. At the Ad Seg section of the McConnell unit in Beesville, Tex., up to a dozen assaults occur every day, and guards wear safety glasses to protect them from the feces, urine, and food that are regularly hurled at them." Hallinan comments that conditions at most of the supermax prisons he visited "press the outer bounds of what most humans can psychologically tolerate." The common practice of solitary confinement, AKA administrative segregation, "drives many to the brink of madness" according to Hallinan. My point? Life without parole in one of these facilities is worse than an easy out execution. Want to punish a murderer? Send him or her to a supermax and ban capital punishment for the sake of our own humanity.
I simply wish to dispel, once and for all, this notion that prisons are nice, cushy places where condemned murderers are sent to live the life of Riley, only to be paroled in a year or two. I do not approve of rape or murder as acceptable conditions of prison life, but they happen, which makes a prison sentence highly undesirable, and the consequential loss of freedom the worst punishment of all. Murder in prison is not the same as capital punishment. And life without parole means just that-you will die in prison. My priorities are simple: abolish the godamned death penalty forever! Every other civilized country has done so without a stratospheric increase in violent crime and so can we. Then we can then address with a clear conscience the human rights violations in other countries as well as our own.
So, Jesus Christ approves and indeed upholds the "lawfulness" of capital punishment? Wow. I am just amazed at the way some Christians twist the mission of Christ to suit their own unchristian beliefs. The deliberate, premeditated taking of a human life is murder no matter how you try to rationalize it. Christ, himself a victim of capital punishment, asked God to forgive his executioners as he died on the cross. And how can you read the Sermon on the Mount and conclude that somehow, in the gentle words of Jesus, he was encouraging death (murder) by electrocution, gassing or shooting? Love your enemy? Turn the other cheek? What on earth do you suppose he meant by these words? And why should I, a non-Christian, have to remind you of them?
Being from Texas, home of the Butcher of Huntsville (better known as George W. Bush), I wouldn't expect you to sympathize with anti-death penalty sentiments. I will lay aside the insults and even apologize, but I will leave you with this one thought: some day, capital punishment will be banned in this country forever. It will go the way of slavery, child labor, and all the other social ills that a truly civilized country learns to get rid of for the sake of its own humanity. The rest of the civilized world has, and so can we. I would prefer to stick around and help the process along. And by the way, Thou Shalt Not Kill seems pretty unambiguous to me.
Hi Jenny,
Fortunately, this sort of degenerate filth can be safely laughed off. Unfortunately, the spark of simple human decency you once may have possessed has curdled into rotten human excrement. I pity your shit filled soul.
I repeat: Christians who believe in capital punishment have betrayed the teachings of Jesus Christ! As for execution as entertainment, souvenir hawkers have already applied for licenses to sell their slimy, god awful trinkets outside the place of execution. Aren't you proud of yourselves? You are the idiot my friend, a drooling, depraved idiot at that like the majority of you Christian hypocrites who go to church on Sunday and carry out executions on Monday. In the larger scheme of things, it is people like you who disgrace America. Why don't YOU leave?
Okay. I have apologized to TXCop, even though the name calling started with him.
As to the points of your last two posts, anyone who sees the hand of Christ in the burnt and bloodied result of an execution by electrocution has profaned his teachings far more than the worst atheist. Christ called on God to forgive his executioners. Does a Christian today dare do less? In the larger scheme of things, dare any of us? And people who split hairs between the meaning of "kill" and "murder" are wandering about in a semantic haze from which nothing fine or uplifting will ever come. As I observed before, contemporary Jews have abolished capital punishment. They have, as few nations have today, the hindsight of two thousand or more years. Perhaps we should approach the elders of Israel today and ask them why they have gone from a people who once enthusiastically carried out capital punishment (as we do) to ones who do not. Could it be that they saw the soul destroying contradiction between the letter of the law (stone the adulterer) and the spirit of the law (restraint leading to harmony within the commonweal)? That is why I am absolutely certain America will one day ban the death penalty. We well begin to trace the source of our moral disintegration (as a more mature society once did) to the repulsive and flagrant violation of our most deeply held values, one of which must be the inviolability of all human life, regardless of how unworthy we have judged it to be! Israel is not a good enough example? Okay, try the rest of the civilized world. Capital punishment is our worst human rights violation. It disgraces us everywhere. No further progress in the shaping of an enlightened civilization is possible until we ban it from our midst.
{{Look, I never said he presided over anything. All I said is he never condemned capital punishment. He even said himself that he came to uphold and fulfill the laws of Moses, and not to destroy them.}}
But wasn't Christ's very mission upon this earth a condemnation of capital punishment? This is Falwell's argument: that just because Christ did not condemn capital punishment from the cross, he was somehow giving it his tacit approval. Once again, you are in the position of portraying Christ nodding in approval at the burnt and bloody mess of an electrocution. Woe betide any Christian who takes an imposter like this as their personal savior! How can anyone read the Sermon on the Mount and conclude that Christ is just another cop on the beat, enforcing, not the laws of Moses, but the laws of America that are contrary to everything he stood for?
{{If you had read my post, you would have seen that G-d commanded man not to murder, but he also commanded an eye for an eye. Leaving capital punishment acceptable.}}
An absolutely devastating contradiction. This one statement alone lays bare the tangled and confused reasoning of so many of you pro DP folks. I repeat: the deliberate, pre-meditated taking of another human life is murder, and no law of God, man or the big kahuna in the sky can make it otherwise. It is the only moral imperative I subscribe to, and from it all other civilized virtues flow. Take it away, and you have hot dog stands outside the places of execution. You have disrespect for other life forms on this planet and a cheapening of our capacity for reverence. Are you proud of what the death penalty is doing to the moral fiber of this country? Don't we have enough state sanctioned violence in the form of TV, movies, and video games? Look at some of the posts from a few of the pro DP folks in this forum. I refer to raventears, atawood2, and ladylark100. Re-read some of their posts and ask yourself if you would want sadistic creatures like them representing the best our society has to offer. I'm sorry to discover that many of your responses give aid and comfort to their vile opinions. Do you wonder why I oppose the death penalty? All to often, I have seen it make monsters out of otherwise decent people like you.
{{Murder cannot be LEGAL.}}
Correct. So please quit justifying it in the name of religion. Capital punishment cannot be reconciled with the spirit any religion worthy of the title. Actually, I would prefer to move this entire discussion out of the religious domain.
{{ All Jews in the homeland speak with one voice in their opposition to the death penalty.}}
By this I mean that the majority of the Jewish people are opposed to the death penalty or it would not be so. Israel is a democracy, right? Banning of the death penalty there reflects the hard won collective wisdom of an older, more mature society. How extraordinary that it comes from a people who have suffered two thousand years of persecution and genocide, of which Americans know not a farthing. Can you imagine the existence of a gas chamber in Israel? That is what I mean!
{{How interesting since a good number of Christians, Jews, etc. in this country feel capital punishment is perfectly acceptable and should not be abolished. Who's religion may I ask you is this a prominent issue of?}}
Any religion that appeals to our baser instincts is not worthy of the title. Demonstrate to me how executions uplift our spirit and make us worthy architects of a wholesome and enlightened society which is, after, all the true purpose of religion. Recall the images of burnt and bloodied human flesh before you give your reply. And by the way, madam episcojew, please try to contain your LOLs. If you think this is a laughing matter I suggest you start a Bozo the Clown Club where people like TEXcop and raventears can paint their faces and mug from the peanut gallery.
{{Not saying that he gave his blessing over the death sentence, but he made no effort to save the two men being crucified with him. He had all the power to do so, but all he said was "Truly I say to you, you will be with me today in Paradise."}}
So, Christ was supposed to pull off one last miracle as he died on the cross? I can just see the Roman soldiers watching in amazement as Christ and the two thieves step down off their crosses and walk off arm and arm into the sunset. I don't think so. I'm not a Christian so I can't explain this too well, but I think it has to do with the promise Christ makes to all who believe in Him of eternal life in paradise. And by the way, only one of the thieves gets to walk through the pearly gates. The other was kind of a scab.
{{If it is such an unchristian cause, how come Christians are so divided in their beliefs on it? If it were truly unchristian, all Christians would be against it. To be honest, I have met very few Christians that didn't support the death penalty.}}
All this proves is that some Christians are not persuaded by the example of compassion that Christ represents. By some perversity of temperament or upbringing, they have sadly missed the fundamental point of the religion they profess. You are at liberty to interpret the Bible as you chose. I myself do not draw spiritual sustenance from it so I will defer a bit to those who do. But I still must profess astonishment and dismay at how some Christians have mangled the Christian message of "love thy neighbor" to read..."unless he commits murder. Then you may gas him, electrocute him, shoot him or inject him with lethal chemicals......" Turn the other check? Forgive those who use you despitefully? What do you suppose Christ meant by these words? It's not as though you Christians look upon capital punishment as a grim and unfortunate duty. How eager you are to see executions carried out! For those of us who do not profess to be religious, but merely reverential, it is most disheartening.
{{My complete opinion of your post is: You interpret your religion the way you like, and I will interpret mine as I see fit. PERIOD.}}
Fine. But don't pretend to be an exemplar of the highest virtues of which your religion is capable. As for verbally ripping my arguments to shreds, well gosh just go ahead and try, miss terrible episcojew. You haven't done a very good job so far.
{{Wow! There are millions upon millions of very uninformed Christians then. I think more likely, you are just intolerant of any ones beliefs but your own, and will attack anything that stands in the way of your beliefs. Even if it includes attacking the value of other's religious beliefs. Quite sad actually.}}
Millions and millions? I doubt it. If so, Christianity is doomed. Maybe all three of the monotheistic religions, come to think of it. And I'm not attacking anyone. I am attacking one of the strangest delusional systems ever hatched by the human mind. I freely admit to despising it thoroughly.
{{You yourself have commented about how horrible life is in prison. You yourself have stated that murders happen every day in prison. Do you value the lives of the other prisoners so little that you are going to put another murderer in their midst, thereby jeopardizing many more lives than just his own?}}
Put an end to the death penalty, our most flagrant human rights violation, and then we can address other violations of human rights, like murder and rape in prison. It is fatuous to give a thought for the safety of a prison inmate if we are counting down the days to his execution.
I have been informed by Yahoo that I may have violated the Terms Of Service (TOS) incumbent upon all club members. I freely confess to having violated said terms. I am referring to the anti-Bush "clubs" run by your scum bags in residence, Howard Pearlman (howardpearlman) and Tom Whitmore (colbushwhacker). While I fully support their right to start any club they want on any subject, they do NOT have the right to bombard me with unwanted, offensive spam advertisements for their degenerate "clubs." I have asked, repeatedly, and for months of these two individuals, to cease and desist their e-mail solicitations, and yet I continue to receive them. I therefore reserve the right to heap the utmost filth and abuse upon their heads until they, or the august administrators of Yahoo, do so. Here are the "clubs" that I wish unequivocally to be removed from, if I ever made the mistake of joining them in the first place: I HATE Bush FAN CLUB; THE I HATE Bush FAN CLUB; ANY "club" run by Harold Pearlman (howardpearlman) or Tom Whitmore (colbushwhacker). The email address that I wish to remain immaculate from these two morons is: m.mayer2@verizon. If you can not or will not perform this simple task, I will continue to besmirch their club postings with the meanest, filthiest things I can think of.
Yours,
mwmayer
....er, Condit that is. Why wouldn't he be a suspect now more than ever? He suddenly realized that his entire golden boy career was now at the mercy of smitten, naive young intern who thought he would marry her. Powerful men like Condit have murdered for a lot less then that.
What Condit seems not to have realized is that his four months of silence pretty much destroyed him. And everything he now says and does is shifty and weird. Look at the lengths he went to keep just this situation from developing. Now everything has spilled out like an over turned garbage can.
Well, if he did have her contracted out he probably figured her story would just fade out like they mostly do. He didn't count on Aunty Zamora. With Chandra out of the way, he could get back to his less talkative lady friends, free of the fear of blackmail.
Condit displays all the attributes of the backsliding Christian: guilt, shame, evasiveness, and hostility. In Condit's loony brain, someone else, not he, is responsible for his troubles. Case in point: he is now trying to make Connie Chung the scapegoat for an aggressive and skeptical media.
The Catholic Church is the oldest and most ruthless criminal enterprise in the history of humanity. It has murdered more people than the Nazis, the Fascists, the Communists, the Imperialists and the Mafia put together. Human filth like Bernard Law don't happen by accident. He and hundreds like him are nurtured at the bosom of Mother Church and are then taught to lie, prevaricate, and dissemble. It's called Catholic apologetics. The Church has been doing it for centuries: blame the victim, then destroy him. Protect Mother Church at all costs. Now, I hope the cost will be the slow, agonizing descent into utter annihilation. Children of the world rejoice: the Pope and his merry band of sodomites are toppling into the jaws of Hell.
Doc, you and I will never agree about capital punishment. There is something seductive about it, I know. It seems so right, so just. It feels good. A murderer is himself put to death and the slate is wiped clean. An eye for an eye. (To see how far this thinking can go, consider this. Recently in Saudi Arabia, where they take such injunctions literally, an Egyptian man had his left eye surgically removed as punishment for his crime, which was a terrible one; he had thrown acid in another man's face. BUT????!!!!!!) However, the price we pay for this seduction is a steady erosion of our own most cherished values. You say that some people look at the lack of the death penalty as a kind of license. But I could argue from a different prospective. A would be murderer might ask himself, if the stalwart, upstanding citizens of this Christian country don't give a hoot about the sanctity of human life, why should I? If the state teaches that death is the ultimate punishment, then it has confirmed the murderer's own belief that murder is an appropriate way of evening a score, or indulging in plain old fashioned blood lust. As I have stated before, capital punishment devalues human life, regardless of how unworthy we've judged that human life to be, making it that much easier for the murderer to dehumanize and kill his next victim. What more could we say about our commitment to the value of human life, but to spare it in one so unworthy as a Ted Kaczinsky, or an Eric Rudolph? I'm not so naive as think that banning capital punishment would put an end to murder. But it would establish that we, the civilized ones, have placed an inviolable premium on human life that we will not let the dregs of humanity cheapen and destroy. IF NOT US, WHO?
"You don't try and stop someone's drug habit when you're busy smoking pot, do you?" Thank you, MCD. You have summed up, in one simple sentence, the appalling contradiction faced by supporters of the death penalty. They have never offered a logical resolution to this contradiction.
Talk about illogical. You assert that MCD's ideas are "honorable." Doesn't that imply that yours are dishonorable? And all this poppycock about the "young and naive." If we had more youthful idealism in this country and less middle aged cynicism, we would all be a lot better off. And as for our "tolerance level" for violence in this country, might I suggest that when executions become as routine as buying a loaf of bread at the local 7-11, we are adding immeasurably to that tolerance. This, on top of incredibly violent movies, video games and TV shows. And nothing is more "trite" than the death penalty. It's the feel good, easy way out for a society that has lost its moral bearings. Think about it, DP advocates: executions might just be contributing to the murder rate in this country. Abolish it now!!!!
Doc, in reference to an earlier post of yours, anyone who requires the execution of another human being in order to achieve "closure" isn't much more advanced than the murderer being executed.
Doc, I'm beginning to think that the source of your corn pone wisdom comes from sitting around in your NC outhouse picking lint out of your navel. If Cerulean is the best person you know, then pal you need to make some new friends. What bothers me about the two of you is that there is no light at the end of your tunnel. All I read is doom and gloom and endless horror stories. And your response is always so predictable: Kill, Kill, Kill! Years from now when people look back on this era, they will be as disgusted with our DP obsession as we today are disgusted by slavery. Doc, a train called "Enlightened Civilization" is pulling up in a town near you. Don't let it pass you by.
Ah, come on sore loser. Want to know why you and doc lost this debate? It's because good always triumphs over evil. When confronted with the sheer savagery of your opinions, you and doc were forced to slink back to your lairs like foul things in the night. Whether you like it or not Cerulean, the young and idealistic in this country are going to build you an new, enlightened society. You can either join or stay behind in your broken down tar paper shacks, dreaming of the "good old days" of lynchings and electrocutions
Well looky here! Cerulean is walking off in a huff! Unable to win her debates through genuine logic or persuasion, she has resorted to name calling. Talk about immature. Goodbye old girl! Please take your dildo and vibrating sex toys with you. No wonder your such a lousy debater, with one hand on the keyboard and the other fondling your crotch, getting off on visions of men being fried in the electric chair and nigras swinging from trees! Now if we can just get rid of your drooling idiot friend raventears, we might just have a half way intelligent debate on this forum.
It's heuristic 77 doc. Heuristic69 was an earlier incarnation of mine that I decided to abandon. I have read the posts of MCD, and he doesn't seem to be playing games at all. He has replied, point by point, to your and Cerulean's condescending posts with patience and intelligence. Maybe that's what bothers you: a thoughtful poster with a genuine reverence for life. And I think bush has made a telling point here too.
"Abolish capital punishment first and then we can turn our attention to the problem of murder, immune from the charges of hypocrisy. Having ascended to the moral high ground that you the other pro DP folks have so shamefully abandoned, we won't be distracted with the messy business of executions."
This was in reply to a specific question launched by Cerulean, and I think it is a good one. So there is nothing frivolous going on here. You should be glad that we are taking your posts seriously enough to give them the quality replies that we have. Now if you and Cerulean would do the same without being preachy (please, no more "you're just young and inexperienced, some day you'll see the light") we might just have an intelligent debate.
...oh and one more thing cutey pie. Seems that what you're really pissed at is that you can't resort to the old fashioned justice of your ancestors. No more "nigras" swinging from trees right doc? The very worst violators of common decency in this country always seem to come from the Death Penalty Belt (formerly known as the Bible Belt). Gawd almighty, I can smell the fresh air already!
Ah come on guys you're breaking my heart. If my last few posts have been rude and abrasive, it's because of your own hateful name calling and stereotyping. Remember doc and Cerulean, I did try to connect with you on a more friendly basis. All I got for my troubles was to be labeled a "suck up." I won't make that mistake again. And Cerulean dear, I'm 53 years old, so I out rank you by 11 years. I grew up with the civil rights movement and I remember segregation and the horror of the Jim Crow laws first hand. It was you, Cerulean, who used the term "nigra" in one of your posts, and I thought, oh shit, here we go. Ruffle up a white southern lady's feathers and out comes her pent up racism. That is a hateful term in any context, a substitute for the really bad N word. So please don't lecture me about goodness and propriety. Want to see your worst enemy? Take a look in the mirror.
{{I want to apologize for not deleting that post sooner. I have since deleted them, and they will not be tolerated on this board. Post # 351 was completely unacceptable. I hope that in the future, we do not read any posts that have even an inkling of a sexual innuendo, let alone what Bush wrote today. I apologize doc, cerulean, mad cow, and everyone else who might have read that. Bush is no longer a member of this club, and I hope anyone that was thinking of leaving, will reconsider and please stay. There has been quite a bit of good debate, and I would hate to see one person ruin it for everyone. Once again, I apologize to all of you that read Bush's post. I wish I had been here to delete it and him sooner.}}
Well, I guess they'll have to kick us all out doc, since you and Cerulean have more than distinguished yourselves in violating the terms of service. Doc, I'm sitting here smoking a nice, hand rolled cigarette and sipping a glass of cold Chablis, laughing my ass off at you and Cerulean. You don't like it that I have returned to both of you the spite you're so willing to dish out? Tough shit assholes.
I do not understand this impulse of yours to attack and demean a fellow poster. I have to agree with MCD: you are an angry man, lashing out at people who disagree with you. "There is beauty in this world, but there is none in you." Oh really? And just who are you to make such a sweeping statement? Better look into your own dark heart, doc.
{{I'm afraid you won't keep me. Thank you for trying though to keep it civil. Cerulean has left already and so will I. That kind of attack hurts which is why these jerks make them .. to hurt. Too often in such a heated question, those on one side of the issue accept and reward one who trashes their opponent; no matter if the means he uses are despicable. This is the problem of activism. To paraphrase Philip Wyle, it is incapable of "seeking the answer rather than proclaiming it." It also has to demonize those that disagree. (See heuristic above)}}
Let's not confuse patriotism with having to condone a debauched political process that allows capital punishment to flourish. I love the country whose founding documents include the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the Declaration of Independence. They contain some of the most stirring language ever written for the cause of freedom and human rights. Bear in mind that even advanced democracies like England and Germany do not have a First Amendment. Freedom of expression can and is routinely curbed in these countries. For example, Mein Kampf is banned in Germany. Perhaps that's understandable in a country that was nearly destroyed by the Nazi regime and still suffers from the shame of that era. But in this country, the marketplace of ideas is wide open and we can read and discuss anything, regardless of how repugnant, or critical of the prevailing political powers in office, it may be. As for the American flag, I agree that it's just a symbol. It is the above founding documents that are the holy of holys and it is they, and the freedoms they guarantee, that Americans have fought and died for. Remember, the so called "flag burning" amendment was recently defeated. This is one of the greatest affirmations of our freedoms that I can think of. The Constitution survived a frontal assault by people who wanted to use it for their own political agenda. You now have the right to stand on any street corner in America and burn the flag if, for example, that is the only way left for you to express your feelings of anger or disgust for this country or its policies. A right guaranteed by the very flag whose symbol it is! Burning the flag is abhorrent to many Americans but as long as we can do so, all our other freedoms are in safe keeping.
But I and a lot of other good Americans are disgusted with the actions of their government. Our government is not our country. Our "government" levies taxes, creates social policy, fights in undeclared wars, and in the case of capital punishment, murders in the name of us all. I am not less of a patriot for severely criticizing my government for any of these policies. Our "country" (and its founding documents) is the safe keeper of the greatest freedoms ever granted a governed people and for that I am eternally grateful. What I want is for this country, the last "superpower" on earth, to take its rightful place within the community of other great nations by abolishing capital punishment, a practice that disgraces us everywhere. Only then can we pursue with a clear conscience the cause of human rights everywhere.
No my dear Ms. Cerulean, I am not crusading for murderers, but really, more for people like you, who hold themselves up as ethical paragons but in truth have lost their moral compass. Spare the murderer not for the murderer's sake but for the greater cause of our and society's innate decency and goodness. If we are the civilized ones, we must set the high moral benchmark that compels us to spare human life even in ones so unworthy as an Oliver Cruz or a Gary Graham, just as surely as they and their kind would not! That is what marks the difference between them and us, and it is a burden that all civilized people must carry. Surely you can see what I am trying to say. If not us, WHO? Re-read your last post. How eager you are to see executions carried out! Your sympathy would not even extend to some hypothetical family member or loved one! Do you wonder that I oppose the death penalty? All too often, I have seen it make monsters out of otherwise decent people like you.
And that brings up a disturbing thought. If Bush is elected president, he will not be taken seriously by other world leaders. Can you imagine smirking little George sitting across the table from other truly mature leaders of the free world? It could take years before he establishes his credentials with our allies, if ever. And what about our would-be roving ambassador of good will, Dick Cheney. Could he ever go to South Africa and look Nelson Mandela in the eye, having bravely voted against his release from prison? Talk about a contrast in stature: Nelson Mandela, and the laughable weenie boy team of Bush and Cheney.
Agreed. We are way off topic here. And while BNB may have made himself unwelcome on this forum (I have not seen the offending post) his often very eloquent arguments against the death penalty should not be discounted. I may draw upon them in my own future posts against the death penalty. And by the way, an attack upon a poster's argument should not be confused with an attack upon the poster himself. This distinction should be obvious. But if anyone makes an argument that is illogical, contradictory, or just plain repulsive, then it is fair game for all the powers of rebuttal at my (or any other poster's) command. Again, this is not an attack upon the poster. Check your facts, your rhetoric, and your sense of common decency before you push the "post message" button.
As I have stated before on this forum, there is no need for personal attacks. But I have read the exchange of posts between you and BNB and I believe the name calling began with you. You referred to him as "Mr. No Balls" a "suck up", a "compassionless cretin," etc. Doc called him "a worthless piece of pig shit." My my, these are pretty naughty words for people who live in glass houses. The point is, if you don't want to be flamed, don't start flaming yourself.
Let's put this debate in prospective: some day (I hope within my lifetime) capital punishment will be banned in this country forever. It will go the way of slavery, child labor, germ warfare research and a host of other social evils that are the hallmark of a pathological society. Unfortunately, it may require the execution of hundreds of more people before Americans have had their gut full of it. By that time I fear the harm to the moral fiber of this country may be irreversible. More than crime, drugs, or pornography, capital punishment has corrupted the soul of America.
Please, Madame Cerulean, no more scenarios. What a lurid imagination you have! You've been watching too much L.A. Law or something! In time, I suspect, I will run out of ways of coping with your remorseless and self righteous attacks on all that is unholy in our land. I see that you are a gardener. Go out and eat a tomato, squash a few Japanese beetles, then take a cold shower. There are not enough days left to see your crusade through to its final crowning victory against the numberless devils and demons you have conjured up. You will be very busy indeed for a long time. And this is what I find so disheartening about your posts. You and the others (attention Tia Marie) are so ready to consign our society to the insatiable machinery of death. Once you have begun there will never be an end to it. Always, there will be enemies lurking, like a commie under every bed. However you rationalize it, it comes out a base and vile thing in the end. One day, capital punishment will be banished in this country for ever. I absolutely, positively guarantee that this will happen. Unfortunately, capital punishment has become for you a means without an end that betters us all. I can almost hear you whisper, "let there be more murders, that we may have more executions!" What will happen when you and Tia can no longer take up your knitting around the public place of execution, cheering as the head drops into the basket and patting yourselves on the back for having seen justice done!
Look. For the first time in almost a year, the Bush facade is finally crumbling. A whole year of unmitigated gall and smirking stupidity is unraveling. You want to know why? Because Bush's handlers have stumbled badly, so naturally Bush, the epitome of the "other directed" man, has stumbled too. The puppeteers have got their strings tangled, leaving poor George to flop around like the dressed up little dummy that he is. What a disgusting spectacle.
This old argument from the stand point of deterrence is a lost cause. Texas executes more people than any other state. If the DP were truly a deterrent, we should be seeing huge reductions in the murder rate. In the case of Dallas, one of the largest cities in Texas, just the opposite is true. I argue from a different perspective. By demonizing the criminal, it makes it that much easier for you to justify his murder er, that is, his execution. This is precisely what many murderers do to their victims. Dehumanizing them makes it easier to kill them. The state makes a pretty poor example for the rest of us. Until the law givers of this country make all human life inviolable, there will be no higher moral example to which we may look for an affirmation of our most cherished values. The death penalty may actually be causing an increase in the rate of murder.
Yeah, I too have felt a twinge of pity now and then for Bush. Like a prodigal son returning home to reverse the fallen fortunes of DAD, Bush resembles nothing so much as a blind man stumbling towards an uncertain destiny that others have crafted for him. In Bush's mind, he must win or lose all. His party, the nation, the world, and especially DAD, are all spectators in his mythical struggle for redemption. He has foreseen that if he loses, his descent into obscurity will be swift and sure. For him there will not even be the consoling joys of elder statesmanship, usually reserved for presidential losers, because he is no statesman and has no original ideas. No one will want his advice, or care to listen to his astute observations on foreign policy. Texans hate a loser and he will be quickly abandoned. So I understand Bush's desperation and ruthlessness, but that is also why he would make a terrible president and why I oppose him utterly and without reservation. Presidential campaigns are no place to find yourself. The presidency must always be reserved for those with high ideals and keen analytical minds, both indispensable in this chaotic world, and Bush has neither. So my pity tends to vanish pretty quickly. The stakes are just too damn high.
Correct. There's a growing perception that there is, indeed, something fundamentally wrong George W. Bush. Is he dyslexic? Is he arrogant and spoiled? Is he mentally ill? Or is he just plain stupid? Bush increasingly shows signs that he is incapable of coping with the complexities of a presidential campaign. His appearances on yesterday's news programs were simply appalling. He was pale, unfocused, and nearly incoherent. Having bobbed and weaved his way this far, he is finding out that there are no more refuges from a media that daily spotlights his incomprehensible bunglings. The pressure is on, and Bush is going soft like a bowl of soggy cornflakes. As far as I'm concerned, his policy differences with Gore are irrelevant. Bush, the man, is a pathetic, shambling wreck. He will need Colin Powell and other stronger men to prop him up and lend him the aura of leadership. But Bush the man will never lead us anywhere. He will only continue to confound us with his little-boy-lost stammerings. I look to Gore to administer the coup de gras during the debates so that Bush will never again think of running for higher office. What the hell is wrong with Bush? The undecided voters in this country had better find out before the election and vote accordingly. Presidential shoes are mighty big. George W. Bush can never fill them.
Dear Camiglia,
"Actually, Bush would probably make a competent, if not great president." Oh really? Maybe your keen analytical eye has seen something I haven't. I see the weakest, most laughable example of unearned privilege who wants the biggest unearned plum of all. Bush will never be presidential without his buddies Powell and Schwarzkopf there to lend him the aura of strength and respectability. And you with your love of language and great literature! Quick, how do you pronounce "subliminal"? Who is your favorite philosopher? Want to see the U.S. government plunge headlong into the messy business of capital punishment? And you can bet that an endorsement from you would only make a homophobic, anti-intellectual guy like Georgie boy cringe. It's okay if you're not voting for Gore. I may vote for Nader myself. But please, take a good look at this guy. Can you see him sitting across the table from a shrewd and cynical leader like Putin? Could Dick Cheney ever go to South Africa and look Nelson Mandela in the eye? I can state with near certainty that Bush will today make a shambles of logic and the English language. That does not bode well for the presidency or the country. Four years of Bush's little-boy-lost stammerings is a scary prospect. It should scare you to.
Yours,
mwmayer
Lazy-o with his pathetic little boy swagger is another Republican pig who thinks he is entitled to a seat in the Senate, the way Bush thinks he's entitled to the presidency. How shocked and confused they must be! How funny to hear their impotent little squeaks of dismay! They thought the impeachment would be Clinton's only legacy. Surprise! It's going to be their legacy. The mountain of bullshit they put us all through for a whole year has come to settle on their own unsubstantial roofs. What's that crashing sound? It's the sound of Bush and company being swept to oblivion on a tidal wave of filth.
Well, I'll tell you Mr. celador2, I could care less about the policy differences between Bush and Gore. It's Bush the man that I'm worried about. Bush could never be presidential without his buddies Powell and Schwarzkoph to lend him the aura of leadership, and to prop him up when he makes yet another assault on the English language. Bush the man will never lead us anywhere. All he'll do is continue to confound us and the rest of the world with his little-boy-lost stammerings. Can you see Bush sitting across the table from a shrewd and cynical guy like Putin? Could Dick Cheney with his unforgivably awful voting record ever go to South Africa and look Nelson Mandela in the eye? Bush simply and finally does not and cannot rise to the stature of a true world leader. Support Gore because he has a mind, whereas Bush has demonstrated time and again that he manifestly does not. Have I convinced you? Huh? Probably not. Republicans these days are content with mediocrity and are all to eager to inflict it on the rest of us.
Bush is discovering that the sides of a toilet bowl are too slippery to crawl out of. Cheney, of course, found this out long ago and has since given up as he floats serenely amongst the piss and turds like a bloated cow. Nothing can save them now. FLUSH. Welcome Gore, Lieberman, and America to a new era of sanity and decency.
Well, Mr. celador2, I know a lost cause when I see one. I'm not going try and convince you to vote for Gore. And if you and the entire Republican party leadership can't admit that Clinton has amply paid his debt to society, then that is what I meant by "people like you."
The Republicans could write a modern day version of "The Emperor's New Clothes," starring the stupidest man ever to run for president. Look at the ribbing Dan Quayle took for his few malapropisms. Bush has a list of them as long as your arm. See "The Complete Bushisms" compiled by Jackob Weisberg at http://www.salon.com. We Have Seen Bush Naked, and it is a Revolting Sight.
This is true. But it is certainly very curious. Karen Hughes has said that only top Bush "lieutenants" had excess to these tapes. There seems to be only two possibilities. One, this is a clumsy Republican attempt at planting incriminating material within the Gore organization (authorized by Hughes herself) , or two, there is a mole in the Bush organization. Either way, it does not bode well for the Republicans.
Sounds like a Republican plant if you ask me. If this material was "illegally obtained" and subsequently used by the Gore people, the Republicans could have made a huge and embarrassing fuss over it. More dirty tricks?
Yes, the founders of the world's great religions were humble people. It is their hubris maddened followers like Dr. Laura who have given religion a bad name. Are people so empty that they need a finger wagging philistine like her to give them direction in life? I have made reference several times on this and other forums to the classic study of human character, The Lonely Crowd by David Riesman. Here, you will find out why it is infinitely better to be an "inner directed man/woman" as opposed to an "other directed man/woman." "Inner directed" means you take your moral cues from a hard won, deeply valued set of beliefs, immune from ideology or propaganda. Religion is signpost pointing to a lifelong exploration of core human values, not an end in itself. Dr. Laura is nothing new. We have seen her kind so many times before. I am always astonished at how many people enjoy being brow beaten and humiliated by self styled evangelists like her. She obviously relishes this role of scolding martinet. Thanks, but I will abandon her amidst the dusty, worm eaten "other directed" homilies of a bygone era.
Oh I see. Well gosh! She's a doctor of something! Doesn't matter in what. This is a perfect example of the intellectual sloppiness of Bush lovers like you. It appears you are awed by titles alone, not substance. She could have a Doctorate in Sewage Treatment and you would still accord her the status of Wise One. But people like you love to be preached to by morally deficient creatures like "Dr." Laura. You are so eager to bow down and kiss her Gucci booted feet!
Don't make me laugh. Bush is an enthusiastic supporter of the death penalty, so please don't imply that he just might of commuted a death sentence if he had the power to do so. And the Texas Board of Parole and Probation is staffed by Bush appointees. Bush made sure they were all pro DP as a condition of appointment who would provide precisely the verdict that Bush would want in capital cases. He's such a coward. He can call himself a "compassionate conservative" while overseeing dozens of executions, and then claim its all the fault of the P&P Board who's members he personally hand picked. Never forget. George laughed while Karla Faye Tucker, a far better Christian than him, died. George will have a lot to answer for if he ever reaches those pearly gates.
I also belong to the I HATE BUSH FAN CLUB. Sure. Drop on by anytime. "Bush is the one who will restore integrity to the Oval Office, not Al Gore." How can he do that, when all he has is the borrowed integrity of others? Bush himself has no integrity. Having integrity implies a mind capable of reflection. I have never seen or heard a Bush pronouncement that demonstrated thought or introspection. Bush is a perfect example of the "other directed" man, as opposed to the "inner directed" man. In other words, a man who takes his moral and political directions from outside himself and not a core of deeply held ideals. See The Lonely Crowd by David Riesman for a full development of this theme. Government by cue-card is a pre-ordained failure.
Manspeas only wishes to bring to your obstinate attention the disgusting hypocrisy of W. and the shocking truth of his precipitous decline in the public opinion polls. Bush is going to lose this election. Not surprising. He's been a loser all his life.
Editor
The Washington Times
The Clintons exonerated. Thanks Washington Times (America's Toilet Paper), for filling the air with your outhouse effluvium over the last eight years. Here's a big "Thank you" to Wesley Pruden and his underwear fetish of a cartoonist Bill Garner. You guys are going to be VERY busy for the next four years! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
mwmayer
The release of this report amply demonstrates the Republican Party's utter unworthiness to govern. History will record that never was there a more dirty partisan effort to unseat and discredit a president with one of the highest approval ratings in the last twenty years. How shall we repay them for the mountain of bullshit they've put us through? This report clears the way for a Gore-Clinton victory in November. I fervently hope the Repukes lose the House and Senate as well. They have earned the utter contempt of us all. Go Democrats, and let the Republicans slink back to their lair like foul things in the night.
Bravo. Ken Starr will forever be remembered as the little creep who pawed through a mountain of dirty underwear, clutching the most soiled ones to his face and breathing in deeply! Listen to him squeak in ecstasy! Look at Barr, Gingrich, Delay, Hyde and the rest of them masturbating furiously while reading Ken's report! They wanted to deny Clinton an honorable legacy. How ironic that their legacy will stink like rectal mucus for all posterity to gag on!
I want to see George and Jeb Bush, Katherine Harris, William Bennett, Mary Matlin, Ralph Reed, Wesley Prudin, Cal Thomas, and Phyllis Schlafly stripped naked and bent over chairs with their lubricated assholes prominently displayed. Enter the king hell legion of ass fuckers with twelve inch barbed cocks, who sodomize them one at a time. Listen to them squeal!
There are three things George W. Bush must do before he gets my support:
1. He must do penance, real penance for his appearance at Bob Jones University. To this end, I purpose that the Governor be stripped to the waist and publicly flogged by Cardinal John O'Conner. Yes, Bush must be given the bastinado before I begin to feel even a teensy, weensy bit sorry for him.
2. He must make a pilgrimage to the grave site of Karla Faye Tucker, whose plea for mercy Bush made a mockery of, and beg on his bended knee for forgiveness. In addition, he must disband forever the villainous Texas Pardons and Parole board.
3. He must, as John McCain had the courage to do, renounce the odious religious right movement in its entirety.
If he will not submit to at least one of these conditions, then I say, let him be locked up in some infernal Men's Room from Hell, where he must perform the duties of a lavatory assistant for all eternity!
With John Ashcroft's approval of the closed circuit televising of McVeigh's execution, this country moves a little deeper into the quagmire of brutality and barbarism. What's next? Pay-per-view executions? This is precisely the foul degeneracy that countries which practice capital punishment fall into. And anyone who needs to witness the execution of another human being in order to achieve "closure" isn't much better than the person being executed. The no doubt good Christians in Oklahoma City who will flock to this disgusting spectacle like ancient Romans to a gladiatorial show have betrayed the teachings of their savior! Shame on them! And shame on all of us for letting the real benchmark of a civilized country, the inviolability of human life, fall into the gutter.
That many people are seriously debating whether or not to publicly televise McVeigh's execution shows us the filthy cesspool that Americans have fallen into because of capital punishment. More than drugs, pornography, or criminal violence, capital punishment has destroyed the moral fiber of this country. Anyone who requires the witnessing of an execution in order to achieve "closure" is no better than the person being executed. And I bet they're all good Christians in Oklahoma City. If so, they have betrayed the teachings of their Savior! Watch McVeigh die, take comfort from it, and you will be forever dirtied and your religion profaned! I myself plan to be as far away as possible from all sources of news media on May 16th. Execution as entertainment? Good-bye, America.
This is typical of the sort of misrepresentation that advocates of the death penalty like to indulge in. Does episcojew really think that spending the rest of your life getting fucked in the ass, beaten, stabbed, spit upon and intimidated is just a peachy keen way of ending up? Even with their few, pathetic amenities, lifers in a supermax prison are, indeed in a dark and fearsome hell, far worse than the quick escape of death by lethal injection. Death, my dear episcojew, is most certainly not the most ominous of all things.
Yes, they get three squares a day. Or do you purpose that we starve them to death? As for the choice of death or a lifetime of involuntary anal intercourse and mandatory blow jobs, enforced by a three hundred pound sadistic, AIDS infected, sexual predator, I would gladly choose death. These things are happening in every prison in America every day, and if you don't know any better, you are worse than naive. You are malicious for propagating this moronic, sing-song version of prison-as-motel-suite-with-TV-and-room-service hogwash. The thing that frightens me about people like you, Madame episcojew, is that you are so close to taking a kind of primitive delight in torture and debasement. This does not recommend itself to enlightened civilization. If you and I don't set an inviolable value on human life, who will? John Wayne Gacy? Yes, let's put certain criminals away forever. They are truly punished and our hands are not stained with their blood.
{{....but my point is, that for many of them, life on the inside is much better than their life on the outside where they didn't have food, water, heat or air, cable television or computers.}}
This "life is better in prison" argument just boggles my mind. I have heard it so many times from the pro-death crowd. And yes, I guarantee you that I know more about life in prison than you do. Life in prison is the never ending monotony of rigidly imposed routine. It is the systematic destruction of everything basic to human happiness. It is life measured out one monotonous day after another forever, in the case of life without parole, combined with the daily terror of defending against rape and murder. No amenity like a lousy fucking TV or computer can ever makeup for that. It is a fearful punishment that fits the crime of murder, that we ourselves don't become murderers. Put away your Uncle Wiggly books episcojew and admit what any thirteen year old could tell you: life in prison is a brutal and terrifying affair.
{{As for "setting an inviolable value on human life," their life lost that value when they took the life of another.}}
Oh really? And just who the hell are you to decide when a human life no longer has value? Don't we, as a Christian country, surrender that prerogative to a higher authority? You go by the name "episcojew". I assume you are Jewish. Isn't it instructive that Israel, one of the most beleaguered countries on earth, has abolished the death penalty? This in a country that experiences deadly mortar attacks and suicide bombers on a daily basis. What does that tell you about humility and restraint? About abiding with the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law? Modern Israel is a young nation, but thousands of years old spiritually. We would be wise to follow her example.
Your the one leading a sheltered life, madam episcojew. Here's an excerpt from a book entitled Going Up The River by Joseph Hallinan. Don't take my word for the terrible reality of prison life; read this book. Hallinan is speaking of a single prison, Pelican Bay in Crescent City, California. "Pelican Bay inmates have had their arms broken, their eyes gouged out, their brains splattered." Sounds like fun.
So, you are willing to admit that at least one prison in America is not the equivalent of a Club Med Caribbean cruise. I submit that all supermax prisons, built to house the most violent criminals in our midst, are substantially the same. In a review of the book I mentioned, Going Up The River by Joseph Hallinan, Michael Massing made the following comment. "Each prison Hallinan visits seems to feature its own form of depravity. At the state prison at Corcoran, Calif., rival gang members were pitted against each other in 'human cockfights' while guards placed bets. At the Ad Seg section of the McConnell unit in Beesville, Tex., up to a dozen assaults occur every day, and guards wear safety glasses to protect them from the feces, urine, and food that are regularly hurled at them." Hallinan comments that conditions at most of the supermax prisons he visited "press the outer bounds of what most humans can psychologically tolerate." The common practice of solitary confinement, AKA administrative segregation, "drives many to the brink of madness" according to Hallinan. My point? Life without parole in one of these facilities is worse than an easy out execution. Want to punish a murderer? Send him or her to a supermax and ban capital punishment for the sake of our own humanity.
I simply wish to dispel, once and for all, this notion that prisons are nice, cushy places where condemned murderers are sent to live the life of Riley, only to be paroled in a year or two. I do not approve of rape or murder as acceptable conditions of prison life, but they happen, which makes a prison sentence highly undesirable, and the consequential loss of freedom the worst punishment of all. Murder in prison is not the same as capital punishment. And life without parole means just that-you will die in prison. My priorities are simple: abolish the godamned death penalty forever! Every other civilized country has done so without a stratospheric increase in violent crime and so can we. Then we can then address with a clear conscience the human rights violations in other countries as well as our own.
So, Jesus Christ approves and indeed upholds the "lawfulness" of capital punishment? Wow. I am just amazed at the way some Christians twist the mission of Christ to suit their own unchristian beliefs. The deliberate, premeditated taking of a human life is murder no matter how you try to rationalize it. Christ, himself a victim of capital punishment, asked God to forgive his executioners as he died on the cross. And how can you read the Sermon on the Mount and conclude that somehow, in the gentle words of Jesus, he was encouraging death (murder) by electrocution, gassing or shooting? Love your enemy? Turn the other cheek? What on earth do you suppose he meant by these words? And why should I, a non-Christian, have to remind you of them?
Being from Texas, home of the Butcher of Huntsville (better known as George W. Bush), I wouldn't expect you to sympathize with anti-death penalty sentiments. I will lay aside the insults and even apologize, but I will leave you with this one thought: some day, capital punishment will be banned in this country forever. It will go the way of slavery, child labor, and all the other social ills that a truly civilized country learns to get rid of for the sake of its own humanity. The rest of the civilized world has, and so can we. I would prefer to stick around and help the process along. And by the way, Thou Shalt Not Kill seems pretty unambiguous to me.
Hi Jenny,
Fortunately, this sort of degenerate filth can be safely laughed off. Unfortunately, the spark of simple human decency you once may have possessed has curdled into rotten human excrement. I pity your shit filled soul.
I repeat: Christians who believe in capital punishment have betrayed the teachings of Jesus Christ! As for execution as entertainment, souvenir hawkers have already applied for licenses to sell their slimy, god awful trinkets outside the place of execution. Aren't you proud of yourselves? You are the idiot my friend, a drooling, depraved idiot at that like the majority of you Christian hypocrites who go to church on Sunday and carry out executions on Monday. In the larger scheme of things, it is people like you who disgrace America. Why don't YOU leave?
Okay. I have apologized to TXCop, even though the name calling started with him.
As to the points of your last two posts, anyone who sees the hand of Christ in the burnt and bloodied result of an execution by electrocution has profaned his teachings far more than the worst atheist. Christ called on God to forgive his executioners. Does a Christian today dare do less? In the larger scheme of things, dare any of us? And people who split hairs between the meaning of "kill" and "murder" are wandering about in a semantic haze from which nothing fine or uplifting will ever come. As I observed before, contemporary Jews have abolished capital punishment. They have, as few nations have today, the hindsight of two thousand or more years. Perhaps we should approach the elders of Israel today and ask them why they have gone from a people who once enthusiastically carried out capital punishment (as we do) to ones who do not. Could it be that they saw the soul destroying contradiction between the letter of the law (stone the adulterer) and the spirit of the law (restraint leading to harmony within the commonweal)? That is why I am absolutely certain America will one day ban the death penalty. We well begin to trace the source of our moral disintegration (as a more mature society once did) to the repulsive and flagrant violation of our most deeply held values, one of which must be the inviolability of all human life, regardless of how unworthy we have judged it to be! Israel is not a good enough example? Okay, try the rest of the civilized world. Capital punishment is our worst human rights violation. It disgraces us everywhere. No further progress in the shaping of an enlightened civilization is possible until we ban it from our midst.
{{Look, I never said he presided over anything. All I said is he never condemned capital punishment. He even said himself that he came to uphold and fulfill the laws of Moses, and not to destroy them.}}
But wasn't Christ's very mission upon this earth a condemnation of capital punishment? This is Falwell's argument: that just because Christ did not condemn capital punishment from the cross, he was somehow giving it his tacit approval. Once again, you are in the position of portraying Christ nodding in approval at the burnt and bloody mess of an electrocution. Woe betide any Christian who takes an imposter like this as their personal savior! How can anyone read the Sermon on the Mount and conclude that Christ is just another cop on the beat, enforcing, not the laws of Moses, but the laws of America that are contrary to everything he stood for?
{{If you had read my post, you would have seen that G-d commanded man not to murder, but he also commanded an eye for an eye. Leaving capital punishment acceptable.}}
An absolutely devastating contradiction. This one statement alone lays bare the tangled and confused reasoning of so many of you pro DP folks. I repeat: the deliberate, pre-meditated taking of another human life is murder, and no law of God, man or the big kahuna in the sky can make it otherwise. It is the only moral imperative I subscribe to, and from it all other civilized virtues flow. Take it away, and you have hot dog stands outside the places of execution. You have disrespect for other life forms on this planet and a cheapening of our capacity for reverence. Are you proud of what the death penalty is doing to the moral fiber of this country? Don't we have enough state sanctioned violence in the form of TV, movies, and video games? Look at some of the posts from a few of the pro DP folks in this forum. I refer to raventears, atawood2, and ladylark100. Re-read some of their posts and ask yourself if you would want sadistic creatures like them representing the best our society has to offer. I'm sorry to discover that many of your responses give aid and comfort to their vile opinions. Do you wonder why I oppose the death penalty? All to often, I have seen it make monsters out of otherwise decent people like you.
{{Murder cannot be LEGAL.}}
Correct. So please quit justifying it in the name of religion. Capital punishment cannot be reconciled with the spirit any religion worthy of the title. Actually, I would prefer to move this entire discussion out of the religious domain.
{{ All Jews in the homeland speak with one voice in their opposition to the death penalty.}}
By this I mean that the majority of the Jewish people are opposed to the death penalty or it would not be so. Israel is a democracy, right? Banning of the death penalty there reflects the hard won collective wisdom of an older, more mature society. How extraordinary that it comes from a people who have suffered two thousand years of persecution and genocide, of which Americans know not a farthing. Can you imagine the existence of a gas chamber in Israel? That is what I mean!
{{How interesting since a good number of Christians, Jews, etc. in this country feel capital punishment is perfectly acceptable and should not be abolished. Who's religion may I ask you is this a prominent issue of?}}
Any religion that appeals to our baser instincts is not worthy of the title. Demonstrate to me how executions uplift our spirit and make us worthy architects of a wholesome and enlightened society which is, after, all the true purpose of religion. Recall the images of burnt and bloodied human flesh before you give your reply. And by the way, madam episcojew, please try to contain your LOLs. If you think this is a laughing matter I suggest you start a Bozo the Clown Club where people like TEXcop and raventears can paint their faces and mug from the peanut gallery.
{{Not saying that he gave his blessing over the death sentence, but he made no effort to save the two men being crucified with him. He had all the power to do so, but all he said was "Truly I say to you, you will be with me today in Paradise."}}
So, Christ was supposed to pull off one last miracle as he died on the cross? I can just see the Roman soldiers watching in amazement as Christ and the two thieves step down off their crosses and walk off arm and arm into the sunset. I don't think so. I'm not a Christian so I can't explain this too well, but I think it has to do with the promise Christ makes to all who believe in Him of eternal life in paradise. And by the way, only one of the thieves gets to walk through the pearly gates. The other was kind of a scab.
{{If it is such an unchristian cause, how come Christians are so divided in their beliefs on it? If it were truly unchristian, all Christians would be against it. To be honest, I have met very few Christians that didn't support the death penalty.}}
All this proves is that some Christians are not persuaded by the example of compassion that Christ represents. By some perversity of temperament or upbringing, they have sadly missed the fundamental point of the religion they profess. You are at liberty to interpret the Bible as you chose. I myself do not draw spiritual sustenance from it so I will defer a bit to those who do. But I still must profess astonishment and dismay at how some Christians have mangled the Christian message of "love thy neighbor" to read..."unless he commits murder. Then you may gas him, electrocute him, shoot him or inject him with lethal chemicals......" Turn the other check? Forgive those who use you despitefully? What do you suppose Christ meant by these words? It's not as though you Christians look upon capital punishment as a grim and unfortunate duty. How eager you are to see executions carried out! For those of us who do not profess to be religious, but merely reverential, it is most disheartening.
{{My complete opinion of your post is: You interpret your religion the way you like, and I will interpret mine as I see fit. PERIOD.}}
Fine. But don't pretend to be an exemplar of the highest virtues of which your religion is capable. As for verbally ripping my arguments to shreds, well gosh just go ahead and try, miss terrible episcojew. You haven't done a very good job so far.
{{Wow! There are millions upon millions of very uninformed Christians then. I think more likely, you are just intolerant of any ones beliefs but your own, and will attack anything that stands in the way of your beliefs. Even if it includes attacking the value of other's religious beliefs. Quite sad actually.}}
Millions and millions? I doubt it. If so, Christianity is doomed. Maybe all three of the monotheistic religions, come to think of it. And I'm not attacking anyone. I am attacking one of the strangest delusional systems ever hatched by the human mind. I freely admit to despising it thoroughly.
{{You yourself have commented about how horrible life is in prison. You yourself have stated that murders happen every day in prison. Do you value the lives of the other prisoners so little that you are going to put another murderer in their midst, thereby jeopardizing many more lives than just his own?}}
Put an end to the death penalty, our most flagrant human rights violation, and then we can address other violations of human rights, like murder and rape in prison. It is fatuous to give a thought for the safety of a prison inmate if we are counting down the days to his execution.
I have been informed by Yahoo that I may have violated the Terms Of Service (TOS) incumbent upon all club members. I freely confess to having violated said terms. I am referring to the anti-Bush "clubs" run by your scum bags in residence, Howard Pearlman (howardpearlman) and Tom Whitmore (colbushwhacker). While I fully support their right to start any club they want on any subject, they do NOT have the right to bombard me with unwanted, offensive spam advertisements for their degenerate "clubs." I have asked, repeatedly, and for months of these two individuals, to cease and desist their e-mail solicitations, and yet I continue to receive them. I therefore reserve the right to heap the utmost filth and abuse upon their heads until they, or the august administrators of Yahoo, do so. Here are the "clubs" that I wish unequivocally to be removed from, if I ever made the mistake of joining them in the first place: I HATE Bush FAN CLUB; THE I HATE Bush FAN CLUB; ANY "club" run by Harold Pearlman (howardpearlman) or Tom Whitmore (colbushwhacker). The email address that I wish to remain immaculate from these two morons is: m.mayer2@verizon. If you can not or will not perform this simple task, I will continue to besmirch their club postings with the meanest, filthiest things I can think of.
Yours,
mwmayer
....er, Condit that is. Why wouldn't he be a suspect now more than ever? He suddenly realized that his entire golden boy career was now at the mercy of smitten, naive young intern who thought he would marry her. Powerful men like Condit have murdered for a lot less then that.
What Condit seems not to have realized is that his four months of silence pretty much destroyed him. And everything he now says and does is shifty and weird. Look at the lengths he went to keep just this situation from developing. Now everything has spilled out like an over turned garbage can.
Well, if he did have her contracted out he probably figured her story would just fade out like they mostly do. He didn't count on Aunty Zamora. With Chandra out of the way, he could get back to his less talkative lady friends, free of the fear of blackmail.
Condit displays all the attributes of the backsliding Christian: guilt, shame, evasiveness, and hostility. In Condit's loony brain, someone else, not he, is responsible for his troubles. Case in point: he is now trying to make Connie Chung the scapegoat for an aggressive and skeptical media.
The Catholic Church is the oldest and most ruthless criminal enterprise in the history of humanity. It has murdered more people than the Nazis, the Fascists, the Communists, the Imperialists and the Mafia put together. Human filth like Bernard Law don't happen by accident. He and hundreds like him are nurtured at the bosom of Mother Church and are then taught to lie, prevaricate, and dissemble. It's called Catholic apologetics. The Church has been doing it for centuries: blame the victim, then destroy him. Protect Mother Church at all costs. Now, I hope the cost will be the slow, agonizing descent into utter annihilation. Children of the world rejoice: the Pope and his merry band of sodomites are toppling into the jaws of Hell.
posted by Unknown at 1:14 PM
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